AOC or not?
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AOC or not?
Morning gents,
My business has just won a contract out in Arnhem Land. I’m led to believe that I can transport my own staff out to the job site and back, whilst being paid (my own wages) and it’s classified as private ops. Correct me if I’m wrong.
The confusing bit for me, is that I’m hiring the aircraft on an hourly rate from another company. Does that change things?
Next issue is, another contractor has approached me to fly his staff to the same community. How can I achieve this without requiring an AOC. The most logical answer for this would be for him to hire the aircraft from the hirer and I then fly it for free.
I approached CASA yesterday with this and was told, “we can’t give legal advice, it’s up to the courts to determine if we were ever to catch you, not that we are saying it’s right or wrong”
My business has just won a contract out in Arnhem Land. I’m led to believe that I can transport my own staff out to the job site and back, whilst being paid (my own wages) and it’s classified as private ops. Correct me if I’m wrong.
The confusing bit for me, is that I’m hiring the aircraft on an hourly rate from another company. Does that change things?
Next issue is, another contractor has approached me to fly his staff to the same community. How can I achieve this without requiring an AOC. The most logical answer for this would be for him to hire the aircraft from the hirer and I then fly it for free.
I approached CASA yesterday with this and was told, “we can’t give legal advice, it’s up to the courts to determine if we were ever to catch you, not that we are saying it’s right or wrong”
Just my opinion (having been in your position years ago): Neither option really fits the criteria of a 'cost sharing' flight but unless you bend the aircraft in a high profile manner I doubt anyone is going to notice or care.
The later case you mention with the other contractor could get tricky of you have an accident and that contractor goes after compensation from someone as the someone will probably be yourself.
Legitamicy aside, I've completed such flights as a PPL years ago and I personally wouldnt worry about CASA, as you have already found they cant even give you an answer themselves. Just consider your own liability if there was to be an accident.
The later case you mention with the other contractor could get tricky of you have an accident and that contractor goes after compensation from someone as the someone will probably be yourself.
Legitamicy aside, I've completed such flights as a PPL years ago and I personally wouldnt worry about CASA, as you have already found they cant even give you an answer themselves. Just consider your own liability if there was to be an accident.
Your own staff is fine. The other contractor's staff is a charter as such. Unless he employ's you as their own personal company pilot. Doesn't matter how much he pays you as long as you have a contract and pay tax on your other income.
AWB
AWB
longrass, just be mindful of your employees. I heard first hand of a situation where one of the employees of a small company was not happy to be flown by his employer as he didn’t feel like the pilot / employer was safe / qualified / experienced enough to conduct the flight safely and he was also concerned about the weight of the aircraft being over. Being an employee, he felt obliged to board the aircraft for the sake of keeping his job.
Nothing happened on any of the flights, however the employee was spot-on with his intuition in the matter.
*Most* life insurance companies only cover you in a chartered aircraft or RPT.
You'll probably find insurance companies will be the deciding factor. I have had a few hirers that were doing work like this, but had to stop because there was no compo cover for being "other than a fare paying passenger". Yes, the compo people would prefer that you drive your staff there through croc infested waters...it's nuts.
Get an AOC if it looks and smells like it, which it does particularly with the transport of non company personnel.
If you can’t get an AOC use someone else’s, which probably would be a better solution in the short term.
If you can’t get an AOC use someone else’s, which probably would be a better solution in the short term.
You might talk to these folk for advice, they even own and operate a couple of Metros to support their bush work. Pilots work the tools as well when on site. Unless you're competitors. 
Jetstream Electrical Darwin Electrician
Jetstream Electrical Darwin Electrician
This is the sort of issue that destroys investment in aviation because it is not possible to remove uncertainty and manage risk. CASA won't help you by issuing a clear statement regarding legality and without that you are building on sand because you cannot get insurance cover for what might be found to be an illegal operation.
multiply be ten thousand business opportunities and you can understand why GA is dead.
multiply be ten thousand business opportunities and you can understand why GA is dead.
I’ll save you answering. Of course they do.
Which Casino / gambling institution are you referring to?
Last edited by Squawk7700; 2nd Oct 2018 at 06:04.
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How about as a sub-contractor on ABN?
As others have said, the issue will be insurance. You need to think of the "what ifs". Hypothetically and simplistically, you cross hire the aircraft, the engine fails and during the subsequent inevitable landing the aircraft crashes, you are killed and so is one of your passengers. It is unsure whether or not the fatalities have occurred because you messed up the landing or because the engine failed and you had nowhere to land except where there was a tree.
Does the passenger's family sue your dependents who have just lost their husband / father for your poor piloting? Do your dependents sue the owner of the aircraft and his maintenance organisation for poor maintenance? Who conducts the maintenance? The lawyers could take years to sort out the settlements. There are to many many combinations of liability to go through one by one.
If you survived but your one of your passengers didn't then the passenger's dependents could sue you. You could lose everything because your main business is not as an operator of as you have no AOC. Then another passenger says that they were all coerced into flying with you and around you go again. I don't know what type of license you have. I don't know if your workforce are contractors or staff. I don't know who your customer is but if its landing at a mine site or private airstrip, the customer may require insurance, evidence of your qualifications etc. How will you manage fatigue?
I don't know enough details of your individual case but I get paid to provide aviation advice to companies, including insurance companies. My honest (if unpalatable) advice to you would be don't even think about this as being a sensible option.
Does the passenger's family sue your dependents who have just lost their husband / father for your poor piloting? Do your dependents sue the owner of the aircraft and his maintenance organisation for poor maintenance? Who conducts the maintenance? The lawyers could take years to sort out the settlements. There are to many many combinations of liability to go through one by one.
If you survived but your one of your passengers didn't then the passenger's dependents could sue you. You could lose everything because your main business is not as an operator of as you have no AOC. Then another passenger says that they were all coerced into flying with you and around you go again. I don't know what type of license you have. I don't know if your workforce are contractors or staff. I don't know who your customer is but if its landing at a mine site or private airstrip, the customer may require insurance, evidence of your qualifications etc. How will you manage fatigue?
I don't know enough details of your individual case but I get paid to provide aviation advice to companies, including insurance companies. My honest (if unpalatable) advice to you would be don't even think about this as being a sensible option.
Sunny is right , of course...thats why GA is in such a schemozzle today.
All the advice, maybe well and good...BUT the complexity of the 'regs' and obscurity of some that can be dug out to kill off the operator boggle the mind..
The OP may well go for an AOC...and by the time he/she has played jump the hoops and survived the paperwork blizzard, paid out mega bucks..and the AOC approval finally turns up after 13 months...then the business opportunity is probably long gone, aircraft hire no longer available ...so its all for nought.
How the hell dopey Governments and its agencies can sqwark.about 'jobs and growth' when the system prevents anyone taking rapid advantage of a business opportunity.
Been there, been 'done' over that years ago. Had an Ops inspection for an AOC variation.adding .CHTR. All OK ..Final statement from the CAsA person departing..'Approval to operate be with you in 48 hrs'. Finally came thru SEVEN MONTHS later after some (expletives deleted) phone calls. But all was lost...business that was to hand initially and cross-hired a/c loong gone!
Over the years I have come across many companies carrying their own employees, or passengers for other than a charter..ie the cost of the week-end on a remote island made no mention of how they got there, being flown in by a PPL. But carry a camera only !!!! Kaboom !!
Its a minefield.!
Just be careful, grassy that you dont blow yourself up...financially and mentally.
All the advice, maybe well and good...BUT the complexity of the 'regs' and obscurity of some that can be dug out to kill off the operator boggle the mind..
The OP may well go for an AOC...and by the time he/she has played jump the hoops and survived the paperwork blizzard, paid out mega bucks..and the AOC approval finally turns up after 13 months...then the business opportunity is probably long gone, aircraft hire no longer available ...so its all for nought.
How the hell dopey Governments and its agencies can sqwark.about 'jobs and growth' when the system prevents anyone taking rapid advantage of a business opportunity.
Been there, been 'done' over that years ago. Had an Ops inspection for an AOC variation.adding .CHTR. All OK ..Final statement from the CAsA person departing..'Approval to operate be with you in 48 hrs'. Finally came thru SEVEN MONTHS later after some (expletives deleted) phone calls. But all was lost...business that was to hand initially and cross-hired a/c loong gone!
Over the years I have come across many companies carrying their own employees, or passengers for other than a charter..ie the cost of the week-end on a remote island made no mention of how they got there, being flown in by a PPL. But carry a camera only !!!! Kaboom !!
Its a minefield.!
Just be careful, grassy that you dont blow yourself up...financially and mentally.
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Almost all casino flights are private. Same with a fair few large scale bizjet operators, they have AOCs but all flights are conducted as private
Folks,
"Industry Insider" nails it. I have been around quite a while, including for many matters concerning CAR 206, and possible insurance/employment law ramifications are the biggest threat. Without that coverage, with the precisely detailed operation being accepted for coverage, including "workers compo", you are betting your personal and business assets.
CASA is the lesser of your problems.
Tootle pip!!
"Industry Insider" nails it. I have been around quite a while, including for many matters concerning CAR 206, and possible insurance/employment law ramifications are the biggest threat. Without that coverage, with the precisely detailed operation being accepted for coverage, including "workers compo", you are betting your personal and business assets.
CASA is the lesser of your problems.
Tootle pip!!
The punters are getting a free ride? Insurance not an issue because the Casino’s have millions?
Insurance would cover the flights but might have stipulated they needed to be performed under an ops manual or something similar. Insurance companies will take your money if you offer it, just needs to be properly laid out. If a company owns/operates a plane then it needs to be covered like any other company vehicle.
The punters are getting a free ride? Insurance not an issue because the Casino’s have millions?
Toiled for many a year as a full time salaried pilot for a private operator who was engaged in the energy business. CASA were trying to make them subject to an AOC, but the company managed to fend them off, don't know the state of play today. We carried all sorts of people, company employees of course, contractors to the company, who I believe paid for the ride through some accounting system associated with the contract, politicians, town councillors, you name it.