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more on pilot shortages

Old 22nd Jul 2018, 04:06
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more on pilot shortages

kaz3g is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 06:39
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Nothing new.

Companies need to review their minimum hours and their recruitment process.

Know of many people exceeding advertised hours for a company but never hearing back, or have been told they are not competitive - same companies advertise for pilots every 6 months - doesn't make sense.

Have a look at the Qantas Recruitment thread, lots of highly qualified aviators being knocked back for whatever reason. Lots of shattered hopes and dreams in that thread - but they still need another 350 pilots by the end of the year. It's easy to see why people chose to go overseas for better chances due to competition compared to two main carriers (Airlines) in Aus.

Nothing hard about flying an aeroplane, but companies seem to make it extremely difficult.
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Old 22nd Jul 2018, 14:25
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Thumbs down

Nothing hard about flying an aeroplane, but companies seem to make it extremely difficult.
Certainly seems that way. Probably 75% of knock backs are caused by failure to pass highly complicated psychological battery of tests to check if the applicant is the "Right Stuff.."

Dear Applicant,
This is to inform you that unfortunately you have been assessed as being not the Right Stuff to be an automatics monitoring monkey in an Airbus. However your psych results show you are definitely suited to flying a Chieftain single pilot on night freight with no weather radar and bashing through thunderstorms to make a buck; or an RFDS pilot flying a single pilot medical emergency mission into a dirt airstrip in the middle of the night and in the middle of nowhere. Thank you for your interest and have a good one...

Last edited by Centaurus; 22nd Jul 2018 at 14:37.
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Old 22nd Jul 2018, 17:55
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Centaurus - BRILLIANT!

How the times are a changing...

Global Aviator is offline  
Old 22nd Jul 2018, 22:23
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Companies need to review their minimum hours and their recruitment process.
True, but many also need to review what they are offering, and what they expect in return. The 1950's are well behind us.

I heard Geoffrey Thomas on the ABC this morning and for once he got it right; pilot conditions are out of step with reality. He also specifically mentioned 2-star hotels in a noisy environment - spot on - this is why many pilot jobs are not attracting the applicants that they need.
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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 07:19
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I heard Geoffrey Thomas on the ABC this morning and for once he got it right
First time for everything, I guess.

Just to be clear; I agree 100% with your post, chimbu warrior.
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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 08:31
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Poor HR

HR people have a lot to answer for. In my experience, HR people do not understand what they are hiring (no credibility) and treat quality applicants with contempt.
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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 08:35
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Originally Posted by snoop doggy dog View Post
HR people have a lot to answer for. In my experience, HR people do not understand what they are hiring (no credibility) and treat quality applicants with contempt.
Thats what happens when you’re 25, lived in melb/syd your whole life and completed a bachelor or arts.

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Old 23rd Jul 2018, 09:05
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Originally Posted by Flyboy1987 View Post


Thats what happens when you’re 25, lived in melb/syd your whole life and completed a bachelor or arts.

Airline culture is adversarial.
Pilots and flight attendants have in times past been glorified. The lifestyle and uniforms all part of the image.

Imagine however one cannot do what it is pilots or flight attendants do, perhaps sitting in administration at an airline is as close as someone can get.
Does this breed contempt? Not necessarily, but bring in an adversarial IR/HR machine, which today dominate airline management and soon enough the culture of envy turns to almost outright hostility.
Several airlines of our experience make an open secret of their dislike of pilots and cabin crew.

With oversupply ensuring that Operating Revenue kept magically appearing this model existed unchallenged for decades.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 01:30
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Just read an article on the ABC news Age no barrier for young city pilot taking to skies of outback Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
about a young lady of 21 flying in Queensland.
One of the most interesting quotes
Ms Magoffin studied aviation at Griffith University, but soon began to question her ability to become a pilot.

"I thought I was so out of my depth, I did not think I was nearly good enough," she said.

"But out of 150 of us, 60 lasted to flight training and by the end of that, there were probably only about 15 of us who finished."
So, according to that estimation, 60% dropped out before starting flying training, and at the end only 10% finished the course.
That's not great odds.
Mick
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 02:00
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There is no pilot shortage. There is a shortage of qualified / type rated pilots. Airlines could, invest in funding type ratings and amending their 'direct entry' requirements, and the problem would quickly go away...
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 02:12
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So, according to that estimation, 60% dropped out before starting flying training, and at the end only 10% finished the course.
That's not great odds.
Someone here will be able to tell us if those stats are accurate. If so, just another reason to steer clear of the career. Once the qualification is gained the real culling begins. ( in my experience which may be out dated now).
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 02:28
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I was on a full time diploma, started with 7 ended with 2 - all dropped out either after failing PPL flight test twice or not passing a single CPL exam. This was 4 years back. The 1 other that finished was from Hong Kong and is now an 777 F/O in China
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 06:46
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Folks,
I am not surprised at the drop-out rates.
Some little time ago, a study of PPL students was conducted, as part of an academic study of pilot training outcomes. This was aimed at pilots, for whom the aim was a PPL, not a flying career, notwithstanding a proportion might go further.
At the final PPL exams, about 80% dropped out, because they could not pass the CASA "trick question" examination. None of the people interviewed were "dumb", indeed they varied from teens with a TER of better than 85 to very successful businessmen, and several doctors and lawyers.
Indeed, the only positive outcome was a coaching course was established to teach "Passing CASA Examinations".
These days, if you are serious about an aviation career, I would suggest taking yourself to USA (No. 1 choice) of NZ, and going from there, including using the TTMRA provisions, if you are converting an NZ licence to AU.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 07:47
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I would suggest taking yourself to USA (No. 1 choice) of NZ, and going from there, including using the TTMRA provisions, if you are converting an NZ licence to AU.
Leadsled. My 18 year old niece is really interested in a flying career probably because I have been sending her flying stories since she was seven years old. Any suggestions where to start with initial enquiries re learning in USA?
Cent
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 07:58
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Are any of the operations cancelling services here actually advertising for crew?
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 08:07
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Originally Posted by Judd View Post
Leadsled. My 18 year old niece is really interested in a flying career probably because I have been sending her flying stories since she was seven years old. Any suggestions where to start with initial enquiries re learning in USA?
Cent
Judd,
Hunt out Mike Smith (former Assistant Director CASA) who was at the Wagga conference. He now has a small FBO in northern California. If Google doesn't find him, get onto AOPA AU, he is on the board.
He will give you unvarnished and honest advice.
One of the things about a US or NZ licence, they have a level of international acceptance and recognition that the AU license do not have.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 08:21
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Originally Posted by LeadSled View Post
At the final PPL exams, about 80% dropped out, because they could not pass the CASA "trick question" examination. None of the people interviewed were "dumb", indeed they varied from teens with a TER of better than 85 to very successful businessmen, and several doctors and lawyers.
I am no fan of the CASA exam wordings (which are often more a test of english comprehension rather than pilot knowledge) but I do find an 80% drop out rate due to difficulty with the PPL exam surprising. Or have I misunderstood and you mean CPL? I would be interested to see the study you mention.

Reason I am surprised is most PPL students I am involved with who are at the point in their training where they will be doing the PPL theory exam, will pass it (students ranging from school kids to retirees and all in between (from both academic and non academic backgrounds)), most on first and the rest on second go, if they are motivated and prepare well.

Resources like Bob Tait's books seem to give a pretty good basis for attempting the PPL exam (in my experience).

There will be regularly cases where students appear to get a question wrong (according to KDRs) that they seem to know the correct information on (making me figure they misunderstood or were tricked by the wording) but they usually get the required marks and definitely not an 80% fail rate.

Those that fail often are not putting in the hard work studying and I often can feel that well before they do the test by their general attitude to theory study and lesson preparation leading up to that point.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 08:42
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Jonkster,
The survey (conducted by an independent but very thoroughly briefed market research company) covered all states and as many flying schools as could be persuaded to cooperate, it was about PPL only, we were most surprised, at the time, about the PPL written exams results.

It was clear, by a country mile, that the PPL written was the biggest obstacle to a student finally getting a licence.

~80% the exams, and ~20% all other reasons.

The total drop-out rate was also a bit over 80%.

Again, I emphasis that the exercise was NOT about professional pilot training, just students aiming to be Private Pilots, which meant that quite a significant percentage were established and professional people in their own fields, not kids just out of school ---- something that the survey established, which was a little different to expected.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 10:24
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Hardly surprising that there is a high drop-out/failure rate. Just trying to navigate the CASA rules is an endurance test.
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