Incapacitation on take off - A realistic act
You can count on Leddie, to take any story and twist it into a vitriolic attack on somebody, normally Aussies.
First: press stopwatch to start logging command time. Second, pull out seniority list and cross him/her/them off!
First: press stopwatch to start logging command time. Second, pull out seniority list and cross him/her/them off!
Yeah, it must have been way more than 30 years ago.
Qantas FOs have been suitably endorsed for a very long time, part of what multi crew is all about.
Unless Leady was trying to be "funny"
Qantas FOs have been suitably endorsed for a very long time, part of what multi crew is all about.
Unless Leady was trying to be "funny"
Very nice chap called Roger, F27 Captain, '50s, fairly fit but not a fanatic,flew 2 rotations from Abu Dhabi to Das and back one morning in the 1970s, went off duty, no hassle, no problems, retired for his customary zizz and never woke up. Heart attack. Medical was all clear, ecg included, not all that long before.
If I were an F/O, which Praise the Lord I'm not, I would run through the "Capt Incapacitated" drill before every take-off with a 40+ Captain, but very quietly to myself.
You wouldn't want to demoralise the old git, now would you?
If I were an F/O, which Praise the Lord I'm not, I would run through the "Capt Incapacitated" drill before every take-off with a 40+ Captain, but very quietly to myself.
You wouldn't want to demoralise the old git, now would you?
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I would run through the "Capt Incapacitated" drill before every take-off with a 40+ Captain, but very quietly to myself.
Perhaps, as mentioned above, there should be no simulated "symptoms", just the affected pilot ceasing his assigned functions, and stating they are incapacitated. This would remove any doubt from the other crew member that there is really an actual medical situation occuring, which by rights should take precedence over whatever is simply being practised. In the instance of a "silent" incapacitation, which I guess has to be recognised and reacted to, is there a challenge and response mandated in cockpit procedures? ie, "Are you ok?", if no answer, take over?
I know there has to be that "startle" element involved at the commencement of any off normal situation, so how do you simulate that where the occurence could just as likely be real and not simulated? Leave it to the instructor to intervene?
I know there has to be that "startle" element involved at the commencement of any off normal situation, so how do you simulate that where the occurence could just as likely be real and not simulated? Leave it to the instructor to intervene?
Under the MOS for Part 121 (Australian Air Transport Operations—Larger Aeroplanes) - Chapter 12 - it states the following:
12.16 Flight crew—crew incapacitation procedures: conversion training
(1) Conversion training for a flight crew member and an aeroplane of a particular kind must include training on:
(a) how flight crew are to respond in the event of crew incapacitation during normal, abnormal and emergency situations; and
(b) the elements specific to an aeroplane of that kind and the conditions relevant to the response.
(2) The training must include instruction on how to operate any equipment fitted to, or carried on, an aeroplane of that kind that relates to treating an incapacitated crew member (for example, crew seats, first-aid oxygen).
(3) The training must include a practical component which the flight crew member participates in simulated realistic scenarios that allow practice in what has been covered by the training.
Hope that helps!
12.16 Flight crew—crew incapacitation procedures: conversion training
(1) Conversion training for a flight crew member and an aeroplane of a particular kind must include training on:
(a) how flight crew are to respond in the event of crew incapacitation during normal, abnormal and emergency situations; and
(b) the elements specific to an aeroplane of that kind and the conditions relevant to the response.
(2) The training must include instruction on how to operate any equipment fitted to, or carried on, an aeroplane of that kind that relates to treating an incapacitated crew member (for example, crew seats, first-aid oxygen).
(3) The training must include a practical component which the flight crew member participates in simulated realistic scenarios that allow practice in what has been covered by the training.
Hope that helps!
If during a Sim session you could smell smoke, would you don the mask and run the drill, assuming these things are getting more realistic by the day... or would you perhaps pause and contemplate if the bloody simulator was actually on fire?
Done incapacitation drills more times than I care to count, some less straight forward than others, but never once did the Pilot feigning death attempt to win an Oscar.
No matter how hard some checkies try to simulate the real world, the fact is, simulators are just that.
Done incapacitation drills more times than I care to count, some less straight forward than others, but never once did the Pilot feigning death attempt to win an Oscar.
No matter how hard some checkies try to simulate the real world, the fact is, simulators are just that.
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Thank you that does clarify, though I am in search of a specific quote/reference that states it must be a training item as opposed to a checking item.
Or rather a statement that checking of certain items such as incapacitation on actual flight is not permissible
Or rather a statement that checking of certain items such as incapacitation on actual flight is not permissible
Standard callouts during the take off roll being missed and a second call also not being made/responded to should give an indication of incapacitation. If the PF fails to rotate, the PM has only one course of action as the aircraft is past V1.
The problem is that incapacitation isn’t an on or off thing. Partial incapacitation where the affected pilot may respond but not be aware of what’s going on is much harder to recognise. Someone may be sitting upright with their eyes open and be totally out of it. The onset can be gradual and quite subtle.
The problem is that incapacitation isn’t an on or off thing. Partial incapacitation where the affected pilot may respond but not be aware of what’s going on is much harder to recognise. Someone may be sitting upright with their eyes open and be totally out of it. The onset can be gradual and quite subtle.
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