What costs does/should your employer cover?
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What costs does/should your employer cover?
I recently sat down with a union rep as had a chat about the current air pilots award.
It was the unions understanding, that as per the award, the company/employer must cover all costs associated with operation of the aircraft, this SHOULD include the pilots medical, asic, charts, ersa etc.
I am yet to meet any pilot working in the lower/medium GA sector that has ever had any of this covered?
Has anyone ever had an employer that covers this? Or an above award pay to compensate?
It was the unions understanding, that as per the award, the company/employer must cover all costs associated with operation of the aircraft, this SHOULD include the pilots medical, asic, charts, ersa etc.
I am yet to meet any pilot working in the lower/medium GA sector that has ever had any of this covered?
Has anyone ever had an employer that covers this? Or an above award pay to compensate?
Raptor090: Pilots are known for their mobility between employers.
It could be argued that this are 'tools of trade' and therefore no matter who you work for, you need to have these tools. Therefore it could be argued that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure they have these items, and they are current, as required by the regs.
Much like a carpenter and his toolbox.
Is it possible that these items are tax deductions as well, as you require them to assist you to earn the wage?
It could be argued that this are 'tools of trade' and therefore no matter who you work for, you need to have these tools. Therefore it could be argued that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure they have these items, and they are current, as required by the regs.
Much like a carpenter and his toolbox.
Is it possible that these items are tax deductions as well, as you require them to assist you to earn the wage?
A former employer of mine didn't pay award, superannuation, workers compensation, night stop allowances and on time. He also informed me that he didn't pay for instrument rating renewals either but I didn't stick around long enough to need one.
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Raptor090: Pilots are known for their mobility between employers.
It could be argued that this are 'tools of trade' and therefore no matter who you work for, you need to have these tools. Therefore it could be argued that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure they have these items, and they are current, as required by the regs.
Much like a carpenter and his toolbox.
Is it possible that these items are tax deductions as well, as you require them to assist you to earn the wage?
It could be argued that this are 'tools of trade' and therefore no matter who you work for, you need to have these tools. Therefore it could be argued that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure they have these items, and they are current, as required by the regs.
Much like a carpenter and his toolbox.
Is it possible that these items are tax deductions as well, as you require them to assist you to earn the wage?
Not to mention the employer can claim all this and more at tax time.
I find it odd that most lames, ops managers, aircraft cleaners, office admin roles all get an asic supplied, but not the pilot who spends the majority of the time airside?
Chimbu,
Maybe they could go and become Carpenters then?
One of the problems I see as an employer is that I keep paying for annual and bi-annual things and then the pilot gets a better offer.
"Really sorry, I know I said I would stay for 12 months or more, but I have to look after myself and my career first. Thanks for the Conquest endorsement".
So off the top of my head in the course of a year, per pilot, I find myself paying for:
Dangerous Goods - $99 pa
HF/NTS - $250 pa
ASIC - $250 pa
Medical - $300 - 1000pa depending on pilots age and medical tests required that year
Instructor standardisation - 3-4 hours at dual rate per annum (let's say $1200)
IPC - up to 3 hours per pilot per year and done in our aeroplanes using our choice of ATO to maintain standards - $2500-$3000 per annum
OPCs on every type we operate - god knows.
Jepps - $400 per pilot
Sundry other training.
I usually work on the basis that you turn up with all your annual things paid for and current and I will renew them... except the medical certificate. That one is bottomless and a blank cheque.
Taking the lower values above and excluding the Class 1 medical, that's $5000 in "stuff".
Multiply out how much it costs an employer to employ a GA pilot per year, and divide it by the number of "billable hours" a GA pilot usually works.
An IFR turbine charter pilot with an instructor rating should pull a minimum salary of $59,700 plus allowances. Their leave entitlements (28 days with leave loading and 14 days without) add about $7,800. Super at 9% adds $5400. Total cost of employing an experienced GA pilot then is about $73,000 per annum or at 800 hours per year, $91.25/hour.
Add to all that the wages of the personnel involved while the training activities are completed, both the pilot and the various ICUS pilots/CFIs/ATOs required.
I'm not saying that these things aren't legit business expenses for an employer but by the same token I don't want anyone believing for a minute that a GA business owner is hiding in his ski chalet rolling in his mountains of $50 notes, pushing all the costs of employment onto his staff and pocketing the difference.
...well... I'm not, anyway.
Maybe they could go and become Carpenters then?
One of the problems I see as an employer is that I keep paying for annual and bi-annual things and then the pilot gets a better offer.
"Really sorry, I know I said I would stay for 12 months or more, but I have to look after myself and my career first. Thanks for the Conquest endorsement".
So off the top of my head in the course of a year, per pilot, I find myself paying for:
Dangerous Goods - $99 pa
HF/NTS - $250 pa
ASIC - $250 pa
Medical - $300 - 1000pa depending on pilots age and medical tests required that year
Instructor standardisation - 3-4 hours at dual rate per annum (let's say $1200)
IPC - up to 3 hours per pilot per year and done in our aeroplanes using our choice of ATO to maintain standards - $2500-$3000 per annum
OPCs on every type we operate - god knows.
Jepps - $400 per pilot
Sundry other training.
I usually work on the basis that you turn up with all your annual things paid for and current and I will renew them... except the medical certificate. That one is bottomless and a blank cheque.
Taking the lower values above and excluding the Class 1 medical, that's $5000 in "stuff".
Multiply out how much it costs an employer to employ a GA pilot per year, and divide it by the number of "billable hours" a GA pilot usually works.
An IFR turbine charter pilot with an instructor rating should pull a minimum salary of $59,700 plus allowances. Their leave entitlements (28 days with leave loading and 14 days without) add about $7,800. Super at 9% adds $5400. Total cost of employing an experienced GA pilot then is about $73,000 per annum or at 800 hours per year, $91.25/hour.
Add to all that the wages of the personnel involved while the training activities are completed, both the pilot and the various ICUS pilots/CFIs/ATOs required.
I'm not saying that these things aren't legit business expenses for an employer but by the same token I don't want anyone believing for a minute that a GA business owner is hiding in his ski chalet rolling in his mountains of $50 notes, pushing all the costs of employment onto his staff and pocketing the difference.
...well... I'm not, anyway.
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Chimbu,
Maybe they could go and become Carpenters then?
One of the problems I see as an employer is that I keep paying for annual and bi-annual things and then the pilot gets a better offer.
"Really sorry, I know I said I would stay for 12 months or more, but I have to look after myself and my career first. Thanks for the Conquest endorsement".
So off the top of my head in the course of a year, per pilot, I find myself paying for:
Dangerous Goods - $99 pa
HF/NTS - $250 pa
ASIC - $250 pa
Medical - $300 - 1000pa depending on pilots age and medical tests required that year
Instructor standardisation - 3-4 hours at dual rate per annum (let's say $1200)
IPC - up to 3 hours per pilot per year and done in our aeroplanes using our choice of ATO to maintain standards - $2500-$3000 per annum
OPCs on every type we operate - god knows.
Jepps - $400 per pilot
Sundry other training.
I usually work on the basis that you turn up with all your annual things paid for and current and I will renew them... except the medical certificate. That one is bottomless and a blank cheque.
Taking the lower values above and excluding the Class 1 medical, that's $5000 in "stuff".
Multiply out how much it costs an employer to employ a GA pilot per year, and divide it by the number of "billable hours" a GA pilot usually works.
An IFR turbine charter pilot with an instructor rating should pull a minimum salary of $59,700 plus allowances. Their leave entitlements (28 days with leave loading and 14 days without) add about $7,800. Super at 9% adds $5400. Total cost of employing an experienced GA pilot then is about $73,000 per annum or at 800 hours per year, $91.25/hour.
Add to all that the wages of the personnel involved while the training activities are completed, both the pilot and the various ICUS pilots/CFIs/ATOs required.
I'm not saying that these things aren't legit business expenses for an employer but by the same token I don't want anyone believing for a minute that a GA business owner is hiding in his ski chalet rolling in his mountains of $50 notes, pushing all the costs of employment onto his staff and pocketing the difference.
...well... I'm not, anyway.
Maybe they could go and become Carpenters then?
One of the problems I see as an employer is that I keep paying for annual and bi-annual things and then the pilot gets a better offer.
"Really sorry, I know I said I would stay for 12 months or more, but I have to look after myself and my career first. Thanks for the Conquest endorsement".
So off the top of my head in the course of a year, per pilot, I find myself paying for:
Dangerous Goods - $99 pa
HF/NTS - $250 pa
ASIC - $250 pa
Medical - $300 - 1000pa depending on pilots age and medical tests required that year
Instructor standardisation - 3-4 hours at dual rate per annum (let's say $1200)
IPC - up to 3 hours per pilot per year and done in our aeroplanes using our choice of ATO to maintain standards - $2500-$3000 per annum
OPCs on every type we operate - god knows.
Jepps - $400 per pilot
Sundry other training.
I usually work on the basis that you turn up with all your annual things paid for and current and I will renew them... except the medical certificate. That one is bottomless and a blank cheque.
Taking the lower values above and excluding the Class 1 medical, that's $5000 in "stuff".
Multiply out how much it costs an employer to employ a GA pilot per year, and divide it by the number of "billable hours" a GA pilot usually works.
An IFR turbine charter pilot with an instructor rating should pull a minimum salary of $59,700 plus allowances. Their leave entitlements (28 days with leave loading and 14 days without) add about $7,800. Super at 9% adds $5400. Total cost of employing an experienced GA pilot then is about $73,000 per annum or at 800 hours per year, $91.25/hour.
Add to all that the wages of the personnel involved while the training activities are completed, both the pilot and the various ICUS pilots/CFIs/ATOs required.
I'm not saying that these things aren't legit business expenses for an employer but by the same token I don't want anyone believing for a minute that a GA business owner is hiding in his ski chalet rolling in his mountains of $50 notes, pushing all the costs of employment onto his staff and pocketing the difference.
...well... I'm not, anyway.
However, for a lower end GA pilot, living remote, paying for something like an asic or medical is a big deal, to the point where we have to save year round for it.
Maybe all costs which come out of the pilots pocket should be reimbursed after 12 months service?
Would that be fair and keep most happy?
Generally a GA pilot in a remote area will be one of the lowest paid people in town, teachers, nurses, police, council workers are all on a better wicket. Then add in remote area prices.
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Absolutely Metro, and god forbid you look for something better after the CP has just invested 5 hours icus (which was a paid charter) on his 1976 baron 58!
god forbid you look for something better after the CP has just invested 5 hours icus (which was a paid charter)
A bit one-sided, don't you think? That time could have been spent with someone who actually had some ethics and a desire to stand by their commitments.
If I was earning what a Carpenter earns, perhaps I would not be complaining so much.
Earning less than 50k a year, in a capital city, with kids, then be expected to pay for up all those work related expenses is farcical!!!
Earning less than 50k a year, in a capital city, with kids, then be expected to pay for up all those work related expenses is farcical!!!
...and we wonder how our competitors do it so cheap
If you as an employee are participating in this race to the bottom you have nobody to blame but yourselves. There are good employers out here trying to do everything right andsuffering because dirtbag employers are shafting you.
....with your consent, I might add. Whinging on PPRuNe just because it doesn't seem like such a good deal any more doesn't suddenly make you "principled".
If you are working at Bankstown as a "contractor" you are also participating in the race to the bottom. You are allowing your employer to compete unfairly and illegally against those companies who are trying to do the right thing.
Base salary for a Full Time SE Instructor is $40,746. If you do NVFR and you are Gr2 you should get $45,447. If you fly a U206 you step up a rate and you get $47,179.
ADD allowances to the above. PLUS super. PLUS leave.
Casual rates: A Grade 2 should get a minimum of $71.01 per flight hour, plus allowaces, plus super.
I have heard tales of instructors at BK working as "contractors" for $45 per hour.
If you are a Grade 2 instructor and you do some IFR Baron Charter you should be on a salary of $56,446 or $88.19/hour casual PLUS super PLUS allowances.
Chieftain pilots should be on a minimum of $58,335 or $91.14/hour casual PLUS super PLUS allowances.
If you are accepting less than this, you are part of the problem and you are rewarding scumbag employers while making it hard for the good guys to survive.
Over to you.
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 23rd May 2017 at 03:12.
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So you promise to stick around - your new employer invests time and/or money into your qualifications - and you p!ss off to use them somewhere else?
A bit one-sided, don't you think? That time could have been spent with someone who actually had some ethics and a desire to stand by their commitments.
A bit one-sided, don't you think? That time could have been spent with someone who actually had some ethics and a desire to stand by their commitments.
There was no promise made.
I had already flown well over 1500 hours for this operator in less than 2 years for my mediocre pay, which included working +88 hours a fortnight constantly, spoken to like crap, gone absolutely broke in a remote part of Australia where I couldn't afford to go home for a family funeral, so when my opportunity came up to progress I took it and never looked back.
I think after putting the company before myself for 20 months I had that right?
Flyboy1987
On the facts presented, that's a whole different story.
Raptor090
If we put the base salary up to $60k, what would that look like to the consumer?
The direct cost to the employer (assuming full time, not casual) is about 132% of the nominal salary.
If the employer is paying $79,200 for his/her pilots that's about $105 per flight hour compared to $93.60 per flight hour (assuming ME IFR CHTR at $53,179 and 750 flight hours/year).
If our hypothetical pilot is only flying 500 billable hours per year that becomes a cost of $158.40/hour compared to $140.39.
That's not a big jump in a competitive environment. It's a long time since pilot entry-level wages moved forward by anything more than CPI.
There are a number of pilots out there who deserve more money and in my observation they tend to move up the tree pretty quickly.
I doubt you are one of these, but the pilots who sit around worrying about what they should be paid (after selling their arse to get the job) rarely fall into that group!
I think after putting the company before myself for 20 months I had that right?
Raptor090
If we put the base salary up to $60k, what would that look like to the consumer?
The direct cost to the employer (assuming full time, not casual) is about 132% of the nominal salary.
If the employer is paying $79,200 for his/her pilots that's about $105 per flight hour compared to $93.60 per flight hour (assuming ME IFR CHTR at $53,179 and 750 flight hours/year).
If our hypothetical pilot is only flying 500 billable hours per year that becomes a cost of $158.40/hour compared to $140.39.
That's not a big jump in a competitive environment. It's a long time since pilot entry-level wages moved forward by anything more than CPI.
There are a number of pilots out there who deserve more money and in my observation they tend to move up the tree pretty quickly.
I doubt you are one of these, but the pilots who sit around worrying about what they should be paid (after selling their arse to get the job) rarely fall into that group!
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 23rd May 2017 at 03:47. Reason: get the numbers right for ME IFR CHTR
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Leafblower some very good points. Never mentioned by a union rep!
That bush job for probably under award but 400 min hours a year - Well that's only taken by persons wishing to work for self benefit. They should actually be fined and jailed as they know/knew it was below award at the very start. All pilots should name and shame them, they are scum. Especially the ones that put in Fairwork claims they day the move on to the new job.
This is how I see it should be.
* You come to me for a job to fly my aircraft.
- Do you have the ratings Y/N
Y= next stage
N= Who will pay for this required rating? Often the aircraft owner possible bond.
* Can you fly the thing?
- Lets take a flight.
No at this point, where are you going to get all the stuff to carry out this check flight?
The charts, ASIC, medicals, headsets and all the other stuff you listed.
So I see it you require it before employment, so you maintain it during employment.
That is the minimum, you or your employer can claim the tax deduction and be a possible employment benefit.
A carpenter with no tools makes little money.
That bush job for probably under award but 400 min hours a year - Well that's only taken by persons wishing to work for self benefit. They should actually be fined and jailed as they know/knew it was below award at the very start. All pilots should name and shame them, they are scum. Especially the ones that put in Fairwork claims they day the move on to the new job.
This is how I see it should be.
* You come to me for a job to fly my aircraft.
- Do you have the ratings Y/N
Y= next stage
N= Who will pay for this required rating? Often the aircraft owner possible bond.
* Can you fly the thing?
- Lets take a flight.
No at this point, where are you going to get all the stuff to carry out this check flight?
The charts, ASIC, medicals, headsets and all the other stuff you listed.
So I see it you require it before employment, so you maintain it during employment.
That is the minimum, you or your employer can claim the tax deduction and be a possible employment benefit.
A carpenter with no tools makes little money.
Horatio, I know of a few employers who get around this in a rather simple way. They don't reimburse for any of the sorts of costs you mentioned, instead they work out how much it would normally cost and add that to a persons annual wage. The idea is that IF they do leave then the employer hasn't forked out all those costs and the employee will still get covered basically for the percentage of time they've utilised them there if the person leaves after only a month or so but if the employee stays their costs are covered completely.
This of course therefore passes the guvmints "Better Off" test in terms of not adhering strictly to the Award and keeps everyone happier about doing such things!
There was discussion in another thread about Bonds as well, apparently the big problem is that they aren't legally enforceable because of the "Better off" test, perhaps some owners like yourself should be petitioning hard to get something put into the Award that allows Pilots to be suitably bonded for "Advanced Training" such as Endorsements or Training on new Aircraft Types like your Conquest?
This of course therefore passes the guvmints "Better Off" test in terms of not adhering strictly to the Award and keeps everyone happier about doing such things!
There was discussion in another thread about Bonds as well, apparently the big problem is that they aren't legally enforceable because of the "Better off" test, perhaps some owners like yourself should be petitioning hard to get something put into the Award that allows Pilots to be suitably bonded for "Advanced Training" such as Endorsements or Training on new Aircraft Types like your Conquest?
Ixixly
I like that idea. I liked it the first time you posted it!
Only problem then is that it is built into their super, their holidays, the overall wages bill and therefore the Worker's comp and payroll tax.....
What about a mobile phone? Given that EVERYBODY has a mobile phone these days and uses it for everything except work, what of the old award provision (still in the award) that the employer will pay for the line rental for a phone in the pilot's home?
Until recently the Coal Miner's award provided for a tonne of coal per year for every employee too
I like that idea. I liked it the first time you posted it!
Only problem then is that it is built into their super, their holidays, the overall wages bill and therefore the Worker's comp and payroll tax.....
What about a mobile phone? Given that EVERYBODY has a mobile phone these days and uses it for everything except work, what of the old award provision (still in the award) that the employer will pay for the line rental for a phone in the pilot's home?
Until recently the Coal Miner's award provided for a tonne of coal per year for every employee too
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 23rd May 2017 at 05:31.
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Even Qantas don't pay for medical and licence fees.
I was pretty lucky back in GA to get instructor renewals then IFR renewals paid for, plus a few twin endorsements, paid for own headset.
Often above award rates, or extras like accomodation. It helps to be CP or CFI!
Of course there was no ASIC then and charts were free. (Except WACs)
I was pretty lucky back in GA to get instructor renewals then IFR renewals paid for, plus a few twin endorsements, paid for own headset.
Often above award rates, or extras like accomodation. It helps to be CP or CFI!
Of course there was no ASIC then and charts were free. (Except WACs)
So what does a King Air / Conquest 2 endorsement cost these days and how long is reasonable before you can move on if you didn't pay for the endorsement
If you have flown KingAirs and Metros and B1900s, it will still be a commitment but it won't be so bad. All my comments below assume we are discussing a decent operator with a CAR217 approval or similar training philosophy.
3 hours or so in the aeroplane will cost about $7500 but it costs more than that.
The Ground school, training materials, instructor time and the coaching would cost your employer about $1500 more but it costs more than that.
The hours of ICUS, briefing, de-briefing, paperwork, mentoring, and investment in your professional development - how do I value that?
You may think that "The ICUS is all done on revenue charter flights so it costs you nothing"... and you would be wrong. We could have had an extra passenger on that flight, or had 200lb of extra fuel for a diversion or alternate, skipped a refuelling stop, avoided refuelling at that really expensive spot, saved a night's accommodation and meals (that we couldn't pass on to the client). On those occasions the acft was full and we couldn't fit you on for the ICUS we still pay you. All these charters and the training represent an intangible cost - the opportunity to do it with someone else who would have stayed longer. Of course, that cost is never aparrent until a trainee gets their ICUS and walks away and we have to start all over again.
We make this investment of time in you not merely as a transaction (this many hours costs this many dollars) but as an investment in our business, as part of a 12-to-18 month plan. Most employers are happy to make this investment in you, too, and do so in good faith.
If we make this investment in you and you leave after 4 months, what then?
If you paid for 12 months registration on your car and the RMS turned around after 4 months and cancelled it, wouldn't you want a refund?