The Downwind Turn - What Isn't Covered in the PPL Syllabus

[megan]

None of your links verify that statement

EAA video.

[Defenestrator]

My 5 cents.

We were all taught how to fly a circuit in the early days of our flying training. The aspects of positioning for the base turn became more prevalent when we started flying aircraft that had 'better' performance. For mine any pilot worth his salt should be acutely aware of wind at circuit heights and manage a constant turn from downwind to final. Evidently judgement is key and it's only a skill acquired after some practice. Though it should be practiced to the point of doing it with ease. Orientation in the circuit is important to achieve precision. Constant turns from downwind to final are in line with visual circirling requirements and will only be mastered with practice. I'm not a training Captain though I do encourage the chaps I fly with to attempt to master the skill.

[27/09]

One thing I don't recall ever being taught is the powerful visual illusion that comes from making turns at low level when a high wind is blowing, and the effect that illusion can have on control inputs.

Every student I've taught has this demonstrated as part their "low flying" portion of the PPL syllabus. You don't need a lot of wind.

In fact it can often be demonstrated in real life in the circuit.

[megan]

Icarus, this FAA document also attests to 20 to 25% of fatal GA accidents being the result of stall/spin, in the period '45 to '48 it was responsible for 48% of GA fatals. It's a '76 document, so a bit out of date re current statistics, interesting reading all the same.

http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/rd77-26.pdf

[Icarus2001]

Anything from this century?

So what is 25% in real numbers?

https://www.aopa.org/about/general-a...t-and-historic

[megan]

June 2014 the FAA was still quoting "More than 25 percent of general aviation fatal accidents occur during the maneuvering phase of flight — turning, climbing, or descending close to the ground. The vast majority of these accidents involve stall/spin scenarios (half of which are while in the traffic pattern) and buzzing attempts." Sorry, can't be of more help.

Edit to add: Since January 2001 to Nov 2003 there have been more than 80 stall/spin accidents in general aviation in the United States. And last year, Pat Veillette, an instructor in the personnel training department of a major air carrier, did a formal study of the NTSB’s records and found that between 1994 and 2000, there were 394 spin-related accidents in this country. Fatal accidents numbered 324.

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-to...571421/?page=1

bunch of pilots and pilot wannabees their opinion on a physics question

Sure you not talking about the Mallard thread?

[AerocatS2A]

Originally Posted by Capt Fathom

There is an thread running here in the Private Flying Forum.

Don't read that! Half of them don't know what they're talking about. The danger with that kind of thread is that it's asking a bunch of pilots and pilot wannabees their opinion on a physics question.

[Ultralights]

Wouldn't it be better if we at least demonstrated a stall leading to an incipient spin of the base to final turn? Shouldn't we all know the warning signs and traps that are waiting for us? Shouldn't we be able to identify the mistake and recover instantaneously? I think we should.

Actually, there have been a few schools who teach this sort of stuff, and have for quite a while, from ab initio.. but sadly, they are considered to expensive compared to school ABC down the road and their 152's.
Falling leaf maneuvers before spinning (full developed spins) and stalling lessons, then cisrcuit and solo work.

Sadly even in pilot training, you get what you pay for.

if you already have a licence, go and do a AAC or Aero training. with proper trained reputable aero pilots. 5 hours or so training that can and most likely save your life one day if you have a long flying career.. being rolled almost inverted by a standing wave at 8000ft scared the crap out me before training, second time it happened some years later, just finish the aileron roll, and no need to change underwear.

[Aussie Bob]

The average beginner instructor is not very competent at teaching stalls and a lot who I have met actually don't like doing it. They take the student to altitude in the training area and consistently teach stalls that happen with a very high nose attitude.

It is a lot more difficult and usually beyond the average grade 3 instructor to consistently get an aircraft into a nose low attitude stall. This leaves the student convinced that the aircraft will not stall in a nose low (approach or departure turn) attitude.

You can wax lyrical about changing the syllabus, compare flying schools, whatever, but this will not solve the problem of teaching approach stalls with a nose low attitude. Getting this taught generally means experienced instructors, something the(GA) industry now sadly lacks.

Sadly the best students I have seen with respect to stall recovery have come through RAA schools with very experienced owner operator CFI's.

[The name is Porter]

Wouldn't it be better if we at least demonstrated a stall leading to an incipient spin of the base to final turn? Shouldn't we all know the warning signs and traps that are waiting for us? Shouldn't we be able to identify the mistake and recover instantaneously? I think we should.

You should change schools Sunny, we teach it, it's usually an aerobatic instructor sitting beside you, they're not scared of it