Looking to return home after a dozen years abroad
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Looking to return home after a dozen years abroad
I am hoping for some advice from others who have been in the same boat, or anyone who is knowledgable about this situation.
I have been living abroad since 2005 - mostly in the US, and currently in China. I flew at a US regional for about 10 years and now am about halfway through a 3 year contract flying a Chinese business jet. My wife is American and my two kids were born there but we are thinking seriously about a move back to my home in Aust when this contract is up.
I have about 8000 hours including more than 2000 jet command hours. I left Australia holding only a PPL, with no instrument rating, and did the rest of the training in the US, not really sure at the time if I would ever move back home. I have type ratings in the EMB-145 and CL-60.
I am wondering what I will have to do in order to get my FAA ATP converted to a CASA ATPL. I have been to the CASA website, and it seems that as far as the written tests go, there is the Foreign ATPL conversion exam, the IREX and the human factors exam.
The smart move may just be to go back to the states when the contract is up; most of the US majors are hiring. I'm just evaluating my options and trying to see how much of a pain in the arse it might be to get myself ready to be hired by an Aussie airline.
I appreciate any advice or insights.
I have been living abroad since 2005 - mostly in the US, and currently in China. I flew at a US regional for about 10 years and now am about halfway through a 3 year contract flying a Chinese business jet. My wife is American and my two kids were born there but we are thinking seriously about a move back to my home in Aust when this contract is up.
I have about 8000 hours including more than 2000 jet command hours. I left Australia holding only a PPL, with no instrument rating, and did the rest of the training in the US, not really sure at the time if I would ever move back home. I have type ratings in the EMB-145 and CL-60.
I am wondering what I will have to do in order to get my FAA ATP converted to a CASA ATPL. I have been to the CASA website, and it seems that as far as the written tests go, there is the Foreign ATPL conversion exam, the IREX and the human factors exam.
The smart move may just be to go back to the states when the contract is up; most of the US majors are hiring. I'm just evaluating my options and trying to see how much of a pain in the arse it might be to get myself ready to be hired by an Aussie airline.
I appreciate any advice or insights.
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I know of an Emirates pilot who just interviewed at Qantas and had a few days of running around before the interview organising a new Aus licence and medical. He lives in my compound, I will ask him for you.
Half of the Qantas pilots are around 50 or older. There should be lots of recruitment for the foreseeable future. I highly recommend working for Qantas and living in Aus. Horses for courses. Don't stress if you don't get in the first go, historically Qantas have liked the people who come back for another try.
I just flew with a young American 777 EK Captain who is starting with Korean based out of the US. As soon as he has 500hours left seat he is gone.
The German Captain I flew with this morning also has 3 job offers in the US and is also going.
You're a lucky man with options in Aus and the US. Just stay away from the ME if you like your health, family and wife.
Half of the Qantas pilots are around 50 or older. There should be lots of recruitment for the foreseeable future. I highly recommend working for Qantas and living in Aus. Horses for courses. Don't stress if you don't get in the first go, historically Qantas have liked the people who come back for another try.
I just flew with a young American 777 EK Captain who is starting with Korean based out of the US. As soon as he has 500hours left seat he is gone.
The German Captain I flew with this morning also has 3 job offers in the US and is also going.
You're a lucky man with options in Aus and the US. Just stay away from the ME if you like your health, family and wife.
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Your kids will get Australian Citizenship by decent, it is reasonably simple and cheap and then can get them Australia Passports (no visas then required).
Your wife is a much different process and far from cheap, it will cost over $8,000 and a fee increase is imminent. Would you wife be wanting to work in Australia soon after arrival?
Your wife is a much different process and far from cheap, it will cost over $8,000 and a fee increase is imminent. Would you wife be wanting to work in Australia soon after arrival?
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Why would anyone live in AU when there are have so many options in the US? I get that the pay is pretty good in China now but can you afford a A$2m basement in east Sydney? how about a "vintage" cottage from the 50s that cost A$3.5m with a roof that probably can't withstand light showers?
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Your kids will get Australian Citizenship by decent, it is reasonably simple and cheap and then can get them Australia Passports (no visas then required).
Your wife is a much different process and far from cheap, it will cost over $8,000 and a fee increase is imminent. Would you wife be wanting to work in Australia soon after arrival?
Your wife is a much different process and far from cheap, it will cost over $8,000 and a fee increase is imminent. Would you wife be wanting to work in Australia soon after arrival?
My contract in China ends in May of 2018, so if we move home in spring of 2018 the kids would go into kindergarten and second grade within a few months. So yes, my wife would be looking to work right away.
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Why would anyone live in AU when there are have so many options in the US? I get that the pay is pretty good in China now but can you afford a A$2m basement in east Sydney? how about a "vintage" cottage from the 50s that cost A$3.5m with a roof that probably can't withstand light showers?
You're right, home prices are outrageous in Sydney. I grew up in the Bondi/Waverley area and I can remember when most of the eastern suburbs were affordable working class neighborhoods. What a difference 20 years makes!
My wife and I are trying to decide whether to move to Aust or back to the States. Cost of living is quite low in a lot of very livable cities in the US, but I've been gone a long time and I'd really like to move home.
As far as our plans for where to live in the Sydney area, I'm looking into some of the nice suburbs to the northwest of Wollongong. Short drive to the beach, right near the freeway and only an hour drive to the airport and some relatively inexpensive real estate ($700k-ish for a 4br house).
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Skilled migration is certainly cheaper if her occupation is on the lists and her experience is counted.
If you have to go the Partner Visa path, I would suggest a Visitor Visa (needs not to have "No further Stay" condition attached) then apply for the Onshore Partner Visa (820). once the Visitor Visa expires she will be on a Bridging Visa A with full work rights - She can get Medicare as soon as the 820 visa is applied for.
Current processing times are about 1 year, so you would not want an offshore application for Partner Visa. As of to day both onshore and offshore Partner Visa fees are $6,865 but there are other costs.
If you have to go the Partner Visa path, I would suggest a Visitor Visa (needs not to have "No further Stay" condition attached) then apply for the Onshore Partner Visa (820). once the Visitor Visa expires she will be on a Bridging Visa A with full work rights - She can get Medicare as soon as the 820 visa is applied for.
Current processing times are about 1 year, so you would not want an offshore application for Partner Visa. As of to day both onshore and offshore Partner Visa fees are $6,865 but there are other costs.
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I have several friends at both Qantas and Virgin. Does anyone know if internal recommendations play much of a part in hiring at either outfit? Most of them are personal references rather than professional ones.
Also, what are most junior and senior bases at Virgin, Qantas and Jetstar? Is it possible to get based in Sydney quickly with any airline? Another question regarding commuting. In the US guys commute all over the country. Are non-working flight crew able to occupy the flight deck jumpseat in order to get to/from their home and domicile?
Also, what are most junior and senior bases at Virgin, Qantas and Jetstar? Is it possible to get based in Sydney quickly with any airline? Another question regarding commuting. In the US guys commute all over the country. Are non-working flight crew able to occupy the flight deck jumpseat in order to get to/from their home and domicile?
Certainly with Jetstar and Qantas Sydney would not be a problem with regards to basing. Qantas Group flight crew can occupy jumpseats on Staff Travel with Qantas Ground airlines. There is no opportunity to travel for free on Jumpseats like in other parts of the world. Jetstar has a function for recommending 'friends' for employment, not sure about Qantas and Virgin but I doubt it would make much difference.
From past experiences, senior base was always Brisbane. Sydney was the base nobody wanted unless single and Melbourne is really a mixed bag of newbies and senior crews being the larger base across all carriers but upgrades can take a while. You could buy an investment property as well as a house to live at in Melbourne, compared to Sydney where you could only get a house.
Commute is non existent. I've only seen one attempt it and it only took a month before they were in hot water with HR for their commute disrupting the operation of the company. Bit risky when your employer doesn't promote it. Their credibility went out the window after that, costing a loco $$$ bad mistake....
Commute is non existent. I've only seen one attempt it and it only took a month before they were in hot water with HR for their commute disrupting the operation of the company. Bit risky when your employer doesn't promote it. Their credibility went out the window after that, costing a loco $$$ bad mistake....
Last edited by PoppaJo; 6th Dec 2016 at 09:44.
Kanga,
Like you I spent more than a few years doing the regional grind in the US before heading overseas, although in my case it was back to Oz to work for Virgin. After 5.5 years there we moved back to the US last year, for a gig at United.
My advice would be to think very carefully before moving to Oz, especially when you have the option of the US. We loved our time in Sydney and we do miss the climate and social aspect of life in Oz but..and I can't understate this, we were sick and tired of essentially being robbed blind to live there. My wife (the yank) and I both earned good money but in the 5 years we were there we paid AU$500k in taxes and rent. Yes Australians are paid more than their equivalent in the US but by God they need to be.
I'm now on 2nd year pay at UAL on the B75/76 and effectively have the same amount of $$ in my bank account after taxes each month (another US$30k raise for 3rd year) but the difference is, that I can afford to rent a big 2 bedroom apartment, pay all the bills and my wife can now stay home to look after our 14 month old. I shudder to think how I'd have managed to do that in Sydney, without moving out to the boonies. Also, and this is a huge plus for me, I'll have 2-3 times in my pension after a career with UAL, than I would have in my Super after the same amount of time at VA. If you want to have your mind blown, check out how many times your Superannuation is taxed and by how much, before you actually get your hands on YOUR money.
As far as the job is concerned, Virgin isn't somewhere I could recommend to anyone. The troops are far from happy and with the new integrated seniority list, anyone joining now would have to wait 10-15 years for a command. This is 3rd hand info but recently they sent out 30 invites for an interview, 21 attended, 15 were offered the job and only 2 turned up. If that's true, then it shows that Virgin is hardly the job of choice anymore.
I apologize if that's all a bit negative. We both really wanted it to work; I had a blast at work (after I'd acclimated to the culture in Australian aviation) with some outstanding colleagues and I really hate that it simply became a financial decision but for me it was a no-brainer.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions and good luck, whatever you end up doing.
Like you I spent more than a few years doing the regional grind in the US before heading overseas, although in my case it was back to Oz to work for Virgin. After 5.5 years there we moved back to the US last year, for a gig at United.
My advice would be to think very carefully before moving to Oz, especially when you have the option of the US. We loved our time in Sydney and we do miss the climate and social aspect of life in Oz but..and I can't understate this, we were sick and tired of essentially being robbed blind to live there. My wife (the yank) and I both earned good money but in the 5 years we were there we paid AU$500k in taxes and rent. Yes Australians are paid more than their equivalent in the US but by God they need to be.
I'm now on 2nd year pay at UAL on the B75/76 and effectively have the same amount of $$ in my bank account after taxes each month (another US$30k raise for 3rd year) but the difference is, that I can afford to rent a big 2 bedroom apartment, pay all the bills and my wife can now stay home to look after our 14 month old. I shudder to think how I'd have managed to do that in Sydney, without moving out to the boonies. Also, and this is a huge plus for me, I'll have 2-3 times in my pension after a career with UAL, than I would have in my Super after the same amount of time at VA. If you want to have your mind blown, check out how many times your Superannuation is taxed and by how much, before you actually get your hands on YOUR money.
As far as the job is concerned, Virgin isn't somewhere I could recommend to anyone. The troops are far from happy and with the new integrated seniority list, anyone joining now would have to wait 10-15 years for a command. This is 3rd hand info but recently they sent out 30 invites for an interview, 21 attended, 15 were offered the job and only 2 turned up. If that's true, then it shows that Virgin is hardly the job of choice anymore.
I apologize if that's all a bit negative. We both really wanted it to work; I had a blast at work (after I'd acclimated to the culture in Australian aviation) with some outstanding colleagues and I really hate that it simply became a financial decision but for me it was a no-brainer.
Feel free to PM me if you have any questions and good luck, whatever you end up doing.
Last edited by Kenny; 6th Dec 2016 at 21:06. Reason: Seplling
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I would echo what Kenny related:
Demographics are the key in understanding the hiring trends. Economic cycles come and go but the age profile of the pilots is driving the recruiting: Pilot work forces are aging, due the demographic.
If I may offer some insights (my opinion) into major airlines in Australia:
VAH is a weakened airline, from a financial perspective. They now face yield pressure which is squeezing their business even more, than their costs of expansion chasing the premium product. Not a comment on strategy. I certainly have no crystal ball, but I would imagine they will try to consolidate with types, reduce costs and tighten it all up. From their financial statements, I think it will necessitate a slower career path.
QAN has not recruited for many years and only recently started. The reality for anyone who joined Qantas in the last 15 years the career path evaporated with the arrival and 'wage tension leverage' bought about by a green fields operation in house called JQ. By way of comparison JQ started in 2004 and a JQ pilot under the MOU (Memorandum of understanding) who currently holds seniority at JQ for a 787 command, would on exchange be able to 'secure' a 737 FO position, but not necessarily on the east coast. This is why many refer to the last decade as the 'lost decade'
Qantas has a total of eight new aircraft ordered, the first delivery is scheduled Q417.
Whilst many on these pages fantasise up to 50 more will materialise and the old career path returns, no new orders have been announced. Qantas under the current management lost around 80 airframes, whilst JQ picked up around 80.
If one investigates Qantas with a view to their financial perspective, they do have gearing a little high and they have substantial off balance sheet debt. Management have preferred to buy back shares on market than re-equip. (As an aside that only benefits shareholders when the company forecasts higher earnings). Qantas have no upwards guidance...
As people know airlines can 'turn on a dime' and perhaps the 'transformation' is short lived.
Qantas'. 'transformation' and turn around profit was due in no small part to lowered fuel costs. they also depreciated their international fleet. In my opinion they are still exposed to changing demand and supply cost conditions.. The Qantas long haul fleet is dominated by four engine A380 and aging 747, which exposes in my opinion an 'Achilles heel'.(their fuel expense is much higher)
Whilst they currently are recruiting, I suspect the recruiting is more to do with aging work forces (all over the world) rather than expansion. All airlines I deal with have the same problem; a lack of candidates and reluctance to up the terms and conditions.
Qantas and to a lesser extent Virgin controlled the domestic recruiting and GA was always easy pickings. Were you to investigate flying training rates you would see, less people are learning to fly. Globalisation has decimated many industries and careers, whilst the political and business elite laugh, but for pilots at least globalisation is a two way street,; pilots are international commodities.
From a cost of living perspective, Sydney has the second most expensive housing in the world at (from memory) 11.2 times the average wage. Whilst incumbent property owners do not see it as a bubble and ask you to marvel at their sheer genius, it is excessively high. A B scale SO salary (at either major) may in fact not do much other than permit renting. A downturn may see one stuck for a while.
These are my opinions, I hope presented to offer some perspectives. My background is different to most here and I hope offers something to think about when considering a move to Australia, and of course I may be reading the tea leaves completely wrong!
Whatever the outcome, may it suit you and your family
Demographics are the key in understanding the hiring trends. Economic cycles come and go but the age profile of the pilots is driving the recruiting: Pilot work forces are aging, due the demographic.
- Pilots take time to train and are increasingly being viewed by airlines as strategic assets. (I am not sure there is a recognition in AU)
- Terms and conditions being smashed over and over (Chapter 11 in the USA) and JQ at Qantas has seen many turn their attention elsewhere, given the cost of entry for the expected return. This saw many leave the industry or go overseas.
- Not everybody has the aptitude.
If I may offer some insights (my opinion) into major airlines in Australia:
VAH is a weakened airline, from a financial perspective. They now face yield pressure which is squeezing their business even more, than their costs of expansion chasing the premium product. Not a comment on strategy. I certainly have no crystal ball, but I would imagine they will try to consolidate with types, reduce costs and tighten it all up. From their financial statements, I think it will necessitate a slower career path.
QAN has not recruited for many years and only recently started. The reality for anyone who joined Qantas in the last 15 years the career path evaporated with the arrival and 'wage tension leverage' bought about by a green fields operation in house called JQ. By way of comparison JQ started in 2004 and a JQ pilot under the MOU (Memorandum of understanding) who currently holds seniority at JQ for a 787 command, would on exchange be able to 'secure' a 737 FO position, but not necessarily on the east coast. This is why many refer to the last decade as the 'lost decade'
Qantas has a total of eight new aircraft ordered, the first delivery is scheduled Q417.
Whilst many on these pages fantasise up to 50 more will materialise and the old career path returns, no new orders have been announced. Qantas under the current management lost around 80 airframes, whilst JQ picked up around 80.
If one investigates Qantas with a view to their financial perspective, they do have gearing a little high and they have substantial off balance sheet debt. Management have preferred to buy back shares on market than re-equip. (As an aside that only benefits shareholders when the company forecasts higher earnings). Qantas have no upwards guidance...
As people know airlines can 'turn on a dime' and perhaps the 'transformation' is short lived.
Qantas'. 'transformation' and turn around profit was due in no small part to lowered fuel costs. they also depreciated their international fleet. In my opinion they are still exposed to changing demand and supply cost conditions.. The Qantas long haul fleet is dominated by four engine A380 and aging 747, which exposes in my opinion an 'Achilles heel'.(their fuel expense is much higher)
Whilst they currently are recruiting, I suspect the recruiting is more to do with aging work forces (all over the world) rather than expansion. All airlines I deal with have the same problem; a lack of candidates and reluctance to up the terms and conditions.
Qantas and to a lesser extent Virgin controlled the domestic recruiting and GA was always easy pickings. Were you to investigate flying training rates you would see, less people are learning to fly. Globalisation has decimated many industries and careers, whilst the political and business elite laugh, but for pilots at least globalisation is a two way street,; pilots are international commodities.
From a cost of living perspective, Sydney has the second most expensive housing in the world at (from memory) 11.2 times the average wage. Whilst incumbent property owners do not see it as a bubble and ask you to marvel at their sheer genius, it is excessively high. A B scale SO salary (at either major) may in fact not do much other than permit renting. A downturn may see one stuck for a while.
These are my opinions, I hope presented to offer some perspectives. My background is different to most here and I hope offers something to think about when considering a move to Australia, and of course I may be reading the tea leaves completely wrong!
Whatever the outcome, may it suit you and your family
Last edited by Tuck Mach; 6th Dec 2016 at 20:23. Reason: typos!!
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Thanks everyone for the replies, and to Kenny and Tuck Mach for your perspectives. I do think that the US makes the most sense for my family, when comparing the state of the industry and the cost of living in each country. I just miss home, my wife loves it there and I would prefer to raise my kids there.
Kenny you're right, the income vs housing equation in each country are on completely different planets. We have been looking at places like Tucson Arizona where schools are great, quality life is good and cost of living is cheap.
My wife wants to settle down somewhere after we finish in China so I don't think we want to try something out for a few years and then move on. Hoping to make the next move the last if possible. Might be better off sticking with the US.
Kenny you're right, the income vs housing equation in each country are on completely different planets. We have been looking at places like Tucson Arizona where schools are great, quality life is good and cost of living is cheap.
My wife wants to settle down somewhere after we finish in China so I don't think we want to try something out for a few years and then move on. Hoping to make the next move the last if possible. Might be better off sticking with the US.
