Should basic use of navaids be taught before first solo cross-country training/
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"There is not a Government in the World that would not kill us all, for what's in that box"
Sneakers from 1992
37min to 39 min
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN6aGRdGNXk
Yes threat is not electrical systems, but the information they supply.
Sneakers from 1992
37min to 39 min
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN6aGRdGNXk
Yes threat is not electrical systems, but the information they supply.
DR skills are not just handy as a fallback when the electronic gear fails, but a must for:
1. Situational awareness, so as to be able to deal with changes of plan or forced diversions due fuel or weather flexibly and sensibly, and
2. Use as an invaluable preflight planning tool, so with a map, calibrated distance measuring device (e.g. a pen, or the span of your fingers) and a knowledge of how many nm you go and how much fuel you burn per minute, you can quickly estimate whether something is feasible or not.
By all means use the GPS or OzRunways on your iPad, but don't be a slave to them. A map, compass, watch and some practice should be all you need to quickly get within a few minutes of ETA, litres of fuel and degrees of heading of the correct figures, and you'll be able to do it anywhere, any time without needing a computer.
This isn't sextants and sunshots we're talking about, it's the basic skill to be able to say 'I'm here, I need to go there, the wind is doing this, so this is my track, heading, distance, time and fuel burn' and be pretty close. Teach navaids and GPS use as an add-on, but as Sunfish said, have the sound basis of DR underpinning it all.
1. Situational awareness, so as to be able to deal with changes of plan or forced diversions due fuel or weather flexibly and sensibly, and
2. Use as an invaluable preflight planning tool, so with a map, calibrated distance measuring device (e.g. a pen, or the span of your fingers) and a knowledge of how many nm you go and how much fuel you burn per minute, you can quickly estimate whether something is feasible or not.
By all means use the GPS or OzRunways on your iPad, but don't be a slave to them. A map, compass, watch and some practice should be all you need to quickly get within a few minutes of ETA, litres of fuel and degrees of heading of the correct figures, and you'll be able to do it anywhere, any time without needing a computer.
This isn't sextants and sunshots we're talking about, it's the basic skill to be able to say 'I'm here, I need to go there, the wind is doing this, so this is my track, heading, distance, time and fuel burn' and be pretty close. Teach navaids and GPS use as an add-on, but as Sunfish said, have the sound basis of DR underpinning it all.
The mental arithmetic bit is certainly the sticking point for many, I think, particularly in aircraft that don't do a nice round number of nautical miles per minute!
The mental arithmetic bit is certainly the sticking point for many
particularly in aircraft that don't do a nice round number of nautical miles per minute!
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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(But I do wonder whether mental arithmetic is still taught in schools? And that's pretty useful when doing the DR nav stuff.)
Although I believe that it still is in most Private Schools.
As for the subject of this thread;
Without basic DR and map reading skills, you are building on sand. Successful DR requires an in depth understanding of basic navigational and map reading principles. There is no quicker and cheaper way to demonstrate mastery of those vital basic competencies than performing DR.
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AOTW, nail hit firmly on head as usual. As you know, my aviating days are over, but I'm firmly of the opinion that basics matter. Just ask Jack P and Dave R about us being in the Nullabor wilderness, no NAVAIDS within reach at 10,000 ft, and the (only) GPS antenna failed. Map-reading and accurate log-keeping saved the day.
I have previously disagreed with Centauraus here, but on this one, I agree with him 100% - and for the reason that I don't think it is the first recent ATSB report to mention that the pilot couldn't use basic navaids but was out and about solo... 
I have 4 independent GPS' on board my RV-9. A IFR panel-mount, the Dynon Skyview, the Ipad running OzRunways and the phone running RWY. Worst case I have a complete electrical failure and the EFIS goes dead. I still have two independent GPS' to get me where I need to go. Are they good enough to do so? Experience so far has demonstrated that they are.
That being said, I have not received any training on VOR or GPS navigation, but I would consider myself competent in both techniques. I learnt it from repeatedly reading the manuals, simulators, and toying with the gear at home. As it stands, the panel-mount is behind me as I type this while I build my own annunciator panel for it. But what's the point of this paragraph though, I hear you ask? It is this...Just because the student has not been taught VOR/GPS navigation techniques does not mean they can't learn it themselves. They have to want to do so, though. They have to have the desire better themselves, rather than just being spoonfed throughout their 40 hours.
While I agree that ADF & VOR's are going the way of the dinosaur, if you get so hopelessly lost that you have no idea what to do, there is no one there to bail you out. You need to be able to fix it, using the tools you have in front of you.
I have 4 independent GPS' on board my RV-9. A IFR panel-mount, the Dynon Skyview, the Ipad running OzRunways and the phone running RWY. Worst case I have a complete electrical failure and the EFIS goes dead. I still have two independent GPS' to get me where I need to go. Are they good enough to do so? Experience so far has demonstrated that they are.
That being said, I have not received any training on VOR or GPS navigation, but I would consider myself competent in both techniques. I learnt it from repeatedly reading the manuals, simulators, and toying with the gear at home. As it stands, the panel-mount is behind me as I type this while I build my own annunciator panel for it. But what's the point of this paragraph though, I hear you ask? It is this...Just because the student has not been taught VOR/GPS navigation techniques does not mean they can't learn it themselves. They have to want to do so, though. They have to have the desire better themselves, rather than just being spoonfed throughout their 40 hours.
While I agree that ADF & VOR's are going the way of the dinosaur, if you get so hopelessly lost that you have no idea what to do, there is no one there to bail you out. You need to be able to fix it, using the tools you have in front of you.
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what navaids???
If you are looking at using ground based aids for training don't wast your time. There won't be any within range. This sup indicates which are going soon or have gone. http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...up/a16-h18.pdf
I think one very important point is being missed by some posters. In the incident quoted the pilot flew into cloud. No amount of nav aid training is going to fix that problem. There's other deficiencies at play here.
You have to ask how/why did that happen to start with?
Sure the weather may not have been what was forecast but I doubt it closed in that fast before corrective action should/could been taken.
The questions has to be asked about what "lost procedures" training the student had been given.
You have to ask how/why did that happen to start with?
Sure the weather may not have been what was forecast but I doubt it closed in that fast before corrective action should/could been taken.
The questions has to be asked about what "lost procedures" training the student had been given.
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Perhaps a good ground run would help them get their bearings.
New to orienteering? : Orienteering Victoria
New to orienteering? : Orienteering Victoria
KRAViator:
You actually make my point for me! You lose one GPS through failure and the other Three don't quite agree….. Which one is correct?????
To put that another way, "A man with a watch knows what time it is, a man with Two is never sure".
I speak from personal experience of GPS and system failure, thankfully in a marine environment in relatively calm weather, take it from me it is extremely disconcerting, especially if you are running an autopilot and coming up to a waypoint. There is a momentary feel of panic, followed by the realisation that you still have a pencil, ruler, chart and magnetic compass. Three minutes later you are back in control of where you are going despite the GPS and autopilot.
Now introduce our little friend Murphy in the air. Your panel mount GPS goes blank, the autopilot trips, the Skyview is still working on its backup battery but for how long? You are now hand flying, you drop the phone and the iPad falls out of its mount and you can't reach it, you worry it may jam the controls. You are in some turbulence, there is cloud about, you can't reach your glasses. There was a town you overflew a few minutes ago but you didn't get its name, nor if it has a serviceable airstrip because you were following "direct to"…… You didn't file a flight plan either.
..At least that is my personal nightmare.
Ain't modern technology wunnerful? I also have a Skyview and spare GPS, but I keep the paper chart going, just in case…… Call me old fashioned.
I have 4 independent GPS' on board my RV-9. A IFR panel-mount, the Dynon Skyview, the Ipad running OzRunways and the phone running RWY.
To put that another way, "A man with a watch knows what time it is, a man with Two is never sure".
I speak from personal experience of GPS and system failure, thankfully in a marine environment in relatively calm weather, take it from me it is extremely disconcerting, especially if you are running an autopilot and coming up to a waypoint. There is a momentary feel of panic, followed by the realisation that you still have a pencil, ruler, chart and magnetic compass. Three minutes later you are back in control of where you are going despite the GPS and autopilot.
Now introduce our little friend Murphy in the air. Your panel mount GPS goes blank, the autopilot trips, the Skyview is still working on its backup battery but for how long? You are now hand flying, you drop the phone and the iPad falls out of its mount and you can't reach it, you worry it may jam the controls. You are in some turbulence, there is cloud about, you can't reach your glasses. There was a town you overflew a few minutes ago but you didn't get its name, nor if it has a serviceable airstrip because you were following "direct to"…… You didn't file a flight plan either.
..At least that is my personal nightmare.
Ain't modern technology wunnerful? I also have a Skyview and spare GPS, but I keep the paper chart going, just in case…… Call me old fashioned.
Last edited by Sunfish; 2nd Oct 2016 at 21:58.
Thread Starter
you must be one of those RAAus pilots who aren't required to carry a second pair, easily accessible
Turbulence just whisked the pair off my face and my headset bag with the second pair fell off the seat, my iPhone slid under the co pilot pedals and my iPad jammed itself behind the seat. All that was left on the GPS was the makers name… I looked down and the Golden Fleece road map I had jammed in the door was still there, I pulled it out, letting in an icy draft again, I was saved!
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if both pairs of glasses were out of reach I'd be calling an emergency; since I would not be able to either spot other traffic, or see inside the cockpit well enough to see my instruments.
The current flying training syllabus is alarmingly similar as the one I did in the 70's. Which itself was basically a hangover of the post war era of Tiger Moth training.
CASA is derelict in its responsibility to flight training by not having a more contemporary syllabus. But, the same can be said for all the State driving licence systems.
As an IFR pilot I like and defend the NDB / VOR back-up system and I'm critical of AsA / CASA for not treating it seriously enough. But for VFR pilots its now irrelevant. The era of teaching it as part of an ab initio VFR pilot training is well over.
ALL pilots should be fluent with GPS. And based on some of the ignorance I see of the way GPS works and its limitations on this forum, the current CASA GPS syllabus is not working.
BUT, you are not a pilot's a#@%&hole if you can't get to where you need to go by DR. Full stop.
And if you don't know the basics of DR navigation, you can never understand what the GPS is doing and whether its giving you a garbage information or not.
You can argue about which should be taught first. But if you can't navigate with only a compass and watch, then your'e not fit to be called a pilot. Because, one day you will be called upon to do so.
In my opinion the gap between a crap syllabus created by Canberra bureaucrats in air-conditioned offices and good airmen is where the true skill of great instructors is demonstrated.
CASA is derelict in its responsibility to flight training by not having a more contemporary syllabus. But, the same can be said for all the State driving licence systems.
As an IFR pilot I like and defend the NDB / VOR back-up system and I'm critical of AsA / CASA for not treating it seriously enough. But for VFR pilots its now irrelevant. The era of teaching it as part of an ab initio VFR pilot training is well over.
ALL pilots should be fluent with GPS. And based on some of the ignorance I see of the way GPS works and its limitations on this forum, the current CASA GPS syllabus is not working.
BUT, you are not a pilot's a#@%&hole if you can't get to where you need to go by DR. Full stop.
And if you don't know the basics of DR navigation, you can never understand what the GPS is doing and whether its giving you a garbage information or not.
You can argue about which should be taught first. But if you can't navigate with only a compass and watch, then your'e not fit to be called a pilot. Because, one day you will be called upon to do so.
In my opinion the gap between a crap syllabus created by Canberra bureaucrats in air-conditioned offices and good airmen is where the true skill of great instructors is demonstrated.
DR skills are not just handy as a fallback when the electronic gear fails