Putting my aircraft on-line
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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Putting my aircraft on-line
After doing the sums I realised my local flying school are marking up my dry hire charge of $120/hr by $50/h before putting it on line for $295 wet. It is a C182P.
That sounds a lot and I think they are cashing in on my investment.
Any people out there who know the going rate? I have been told 20% of the dry hire is normal.
(please don't reply with lectures about why I should not put it on line. I have my reasons, thanks)
That sounds a lot and I think they are cashing in on my investment.
Any people out there who know the going rate? I have been told 20% of the dry hire is normal.
(please don't reply with lectures about why I should not put it on line. I have my reasons, thanks)
Because they have overheads to pay? Flying schools aren't charities. Sounds like a reasonable rate to me.
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Ok brommers I am in, lets sort it.
Need all your costs plus what you expect as a pre and post tax profit on your investment, also need any deductions you may claim for tax reasons and also expected personal use.
Also do you cover loss of use of your asset or any other items we need to know about?
Need all your costs plus what you expect as a pre and post tax profit on your investment, also need any deductions you may claim for tax reasons and also expected personal use.
Also do you cover loss of use of your asset or any other items we need to know about?
After doing the sums I realised my local flying school are marking up my dry hire charge of $120/hr by $50/h before putting it on line for $295 wet. It is a C182P.
That sounds a lot and I think they are cashing in on my investment.
Any people out there who know the going rate? I have been told 20% of the dry hire is normal.
(please don't reply with lectures about why I should not put it on line. I have my reasons, thanks)
That sounds a lot and I think they are cashing in on my investment.
Any people out there who know the going rate? I have been told 20% of the dry hire is normal.
(please don't reply with lectures about why I should not put it on line. I have my reasons, thanks)
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I have an aircraft online and the numbers are similar to what you've mentioned.
Whilst, as an owner, it hurts a little to look at that margin, as CAVOK stated, I can see that the costs are substantial...
Not to mention the associated compliance related headaches...
The main question in my mind is what are you trying to achieve in terms of hiring your aircraft. In my situation, whilst its nice to receive some income I don't think I'm ever in danger of making any money. The main driver is to make sure the aircraft is being used (even if that isn't by me) as I don't want it to just sit on the apron. The other one is that I have some satisfaction in being able to 'give back' to the industry and allow others to have fun flying like I do.
If you aren't interested in big hours, you might be better off simply hiring it out yourself. Making your own website is part of the fun.....
Whilst, as an owner, it hurts a little to look at that margin, as CAVOK stated, I can see that the costs are substantial...
Not to mention the associated compliance related headaches...
The main question in my mind is what are you trying to achieve in terms of hiring your aircraft. In my situation, whilst its nice to receive some income I don't think I'm ever in danger of making any money. The main driver is to make sure the aircraft is being used (even if that isn't by me) as I don't want it to just sit on the apron. The other one is that I have some satisfaction in being able to 'give back' to the industry and allow others to have fun flying like I do.
If you aren't interested in big hours, you might be better off simply hiring it out yourself. Making your own website is part of the fun.....
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I don't think I should be funding a fulltime receptionist and bookeeper. Most places have instructors operating reception and the book keeper visits one every 3 months to do the tax. They are marking up by more than double what I was told to expect by another school. What I was hoping to achieve was to trade off engine life for avionics upgrade. That could still work but neither am I a charity. They sold off all their aircraft and now cross hire but are still treating other peoples aircraft as their own asset. Looks like I will have to run it myself.
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Another !!
Mate.....what they charge the aircraft out at is really none of your business. They have staff to pay. Get over it. Yet another clown who believes that a flying school can be run on the smell of an oil rag with all the consequences that go along with that strategy. No wonder this industry is ******! !
So are you unhappy because they are making more money than you thought, or because you are making less than you thought? Were you not happy with the original price of $120/hr when you put in on line with them? In the end they are making $26 over what you thought they might make. Put up your rate to $146/hr and see what happens. Do you want more money, or more hours on it?
If you don't think you should be paying for a full time receptionist, why would you cross hire your aircraft to one that does. My previous experience with flying schools is that they put 20% on top of the aircraft operating costs. So if you do the maths on your 182 you will find it should come to about $45.
The flying school gets to choose what they charge the aircraft out at. You get to choose a rate that you x-hire the aircraft at. If you aren't happy with what your getting? negotiate more, or cross hire it somewhere else. I'm sure there are a few companies at Moorabin who would love to have it. Keep in mind tho YMMB will charge you ten fold to park it.
Someone with your professional aviation experience should understand what it cost to run an aviation business these days. Compliance costs alone would need that 182 to do a lot of hours.
As well as that, any one in business outside of aviation looking at a flying school who has 20% margins to cover the fixed costs and make a little profit to put back into the club would tell them they they should close their doors immediately before they go bankrupt.
There is only one way to make a small fortune in aviation. Start with a big one.
Unfortunately you and your flying school are in the same boat.
The flying school gets to choose what they charge the aircraft out at. You get to choose a rate that you x-hire the aircraft at. If you aren't happy with what your getting? negotiate more, or cross hire it somewhere else. I'm sure there are a few companies at Moorabin who would love to have it. Keep in mind tho YMMB will charge you ten fold to park it.
Someone with your professional aviation experience should understand what it cost to run an aviation business these days. Compliance costs alone would need that 182 to do a lot of hours.
As well as that, any one in business outside of aviation looking at a flying school who has 20% margins to cover the fixed costs and make a little profit to put back into the club would tell them they they should close their doors immediately before they go bankrupt.
There is only one way to make a small fortune in aviation. Start with a big one.
Unfortunately you and your flying school are in the same boat.
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Three simple questions:
If the answer to those questions is yes, then what they charge on top is really irrelevant to you.
If the answer to any of those questions is no, then go and have a conversation with them, and focus on those issues, not their rate.
- Are you getting the hours you expected on the a/c?
- Are they looking after your a/c as you would expect them to?
- Is the rate you get a rate you agreed and are happy with?
If the answer to those questions is yes, then what they charge on top is really irrelevant to you.
If the answer to any of those questions is no, then go and have a conversation with them, and focus on those issues, not their rate.
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The intent of my original post was to try to gauge what is the norm. I have not had much feedback so far.
I have asked for $145 dry but they don't want to pay it so at the moment is is off-line from 1st Oct.
I have asked for $145 dry but they don't want to pay it so at the moment is is off-line from 1st Oct.
brommers.
A lot of sound experience above from some who, I know, own and operate flying schools. Now for my 2 bobs worth.
If you own a nice aircraft, and you're feeling the pinch insofar as annual outgoings such as insurance: have a search about for 1 or 2 reliable pilots who are not owners, but have a steady need for a private aircraft for , say, 40 hrs pa. Negotiate a dry or wet hire rate with them - place them on your insurance by arrangement with your insurer, and be happy that the small income from these 1 or 2 pilots helps defray your insurance, hangarage etc.
Don't forget that your insurer might require additional premium to cover less experienced pilots so you need to make an adjustment for that. And, remember that it's you who have to determine whether these pilots are competent, current, and trustworthy. Unless you have a lot of experience in the industry, that decision may be better laft to a flying school who are qualified to do just that.
BTW, a C182 isn't the type that you just hire out to any pilot. They are very prone to front end damage, and need to be flown differently to a C172.
You won't ever meet your full outgoings: but you will prune back your more painful annual costs by way of some extra 'income' plus increased utilisation as well.
Good luck!
A lot of sound experience above from some who, I know, own and operate flying schools. Now for my 2 bobs worth.
If you own a nice aircraft, and you're feeling the pinch insofar as annual outgoings such as insurance: have a search about for 1 or 2 reliable pilots who are not owners, but have a steady need for a private aircraft for , say, 40 hrs pa. Negotiate a dry or wet hire rate with them - place them on your insurance by arrangement with your insurer, and be happy that the small income from these 1 or 2 pilots helps defray your insurance, hangarage etc.
Don't forget that your insurer might require additional premium to cover less experienced pilots so you need to make an adjustment for that. And, remember that it's you who have to determine whether these pilots are competent, current, and trustworthy. Unless you have a lot of experience in the industry, that decision may be better laft to a flying school who are qualified to do just that.
BTW, a C182 isn't the type that you just hire out to any pilot. They are very prone to front end damage, and need to be flown differently to a C172.
You won't ever meet your full outgoings: but you will prune back your more painful annual costs by way of some extra 'income' plus increased utilisation as well.
Good luck!
$145 is reasonable.
Supply and demand, see what you can get elsewhere.
I own an aircraft of similar performance to the 182 and I budget $200 an hour running costs dry doing 100 hours a year. That is realistic having owned it for 10 years...but one 100 hourly unexpected item can gobble that up in one hit.
Supply and demand, see what you can get elsewhere.
I own an aircraft of similar performance to the 182 and I budget $200 an hour running costs dry doing 100 hours a year. That is realistic having owned it for 10 years...but one 100 hourly unexpected item can gobble that up in one hit.
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Can I ask a serious question op? do you work for the government or a sector paid by them?
Unless you do mega hours your deal will never bear fruit of a avionics upgrade and any part to that is loss of engine/prop and aircraft in general, is your sids are not done you are in a World of hurt.
You know you need help to run your aircraft, they need help too - it is not a .com industry - never has been. why don't you offer to buy shares in the company you dry lease your plane if the make so much profit?
Unless you do mega hours your deal will never bear fruit of a avionics upgrade and any part to that is loss of engine/prop and aircraft in general, is your sids are not done you are in a World of hurt.
You know you need help to run your aircraft, they need help too - it is not a .com industry - never has been. why don't you offer to buy shares in the company you dry lease your plane if the make so much profit?
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Brommers,
Ever rented a car?
In the car rental business, the company organizes its car finance as low as possible to put as many cars as it can on "the line" and, then rents the cars out for as much as they can. They often have discount to get the work or offer free upgrades and sometimes not. Whatever happens, it is of no interest to the finance company ( they get the agreed rate).
Sounds to me like you have done a deal with the devil but, now you are not happy about dancing with him and maybe greed has got the better of you.
Do you feel as if the school should bend over backwards just because you are letting them play with your pride an joy?
To them it is just business and let me tell you, it is a tough one.
Did you ask for a minimum number of hours?
Did they offer it?
In order to get the utilization for your aircraft you don't really know what they might have do to their hire charges but, you still want your money( actually now more). They may drop the retail rate or even offer instructors for free to support hirers who are not all that comfortable in your aircraft or to encourage pilots to move up into the next class of aircraft. No one knows but, it really isn't your business, you have agreed on a wholesale rate.
Starting to grumble or threaten to move to another school may get you a reputation that will stick.
Trading engine hours for avionics upgrade? Forgive me for saying but ,sounds like another pie in the sky private pilot idea to me. For decades now, l have seen people buy a plane with the hope of becoming the next version of ILFC through GA cross hire.
People are always entering aviation with no real knowledge of the industry and they try to reinvent the wheel. They don't realize that the wheel fell off ages ago.
If you can't afford to pay for the aircraft fitted out as you want it to be then, it sounds to me like you can't afford the aircraft.
A wise man once said to me that, the only time you should buy an aircraft is when you can afford to let it sit there for when you want to fly it.
One last point, ever wonder why car rental companies turn over their cars at about the 15 month or 40,000km mark?
Ever rented a car?
In the car rental business, the company organizes its car finance as low as possible to put as many cars as it can on "the line" and, then rents the cars out for as much as they can. They often have discount to get the work or offer free upgrades and sometimes not. Whatever happens, it is of no interest to the finance company ( they get the agreed rate).
Sounds to me like you have done a deal with the devil but, now you are not happy about dancing with him and maybe greed has got the better of you.
Do you feel as if the school should bend over backwards just because you are letting them play with your pride an joy?
To them it is just business and let me tell you, it is a tough one.
Did you ask for a minimum number of hours?
Did they offer it?
In order to get the utilization for your aircraft you don't really know what they might have do to their hire charges but, you still want your money( actually now more). They may drop the retail rate or even offer instructors for free to support hirers who are not all that comfortable in your aircraft or to encourage pilots to move up into the next class of aircraft. No one knows but, it really isn't your business, you have agreed on a wholesale rate.
Starting to grumble or threaten to move to another school may get you a reputation that will stick.
Trading engine hours for avionics upgrade? Forgive me for saying but ,sounds like another pie in the sky private pilot idea to me. For decades now, l have seen people buy a plane with the hope of becoming the next version of ILFC through GA cross hire.
People are always entering aviation with no real knowledge of the industry and they try to reinvent the wheel. They don't realize that the wheel fell off ages ago.
If you can't afford to pay for the aircraft fitted out as you want it to be then, it sounds to me like you can't afford the aircraft.
A wise man once said to me that, the only time you should buy an aircraft is when you can afford to let it sit there for when you want to fly it.
One last point, ever wonder why car rental companies turn over their cars at about the 15 month or 40,000km mark?