Wikiposts
Search
The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Mr Skidmore unmovable on ADSB

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 9th May 2016, 08:35
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I got that Akro. Just didn't want to swamp my point with that added extra of the **** system we are getting.
jas24zzk is offline  
Old 9th May 2016, 08:41
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Who care's if it affects your privacy?? Big Brother is always watching anyway
Not just big brother... you can get the registration data from CASA and use ADSB information to compile a real time list of "Rich people who are not at home"
andrewr is offline  
Old 9th May 2016, 09:25
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You are assuming he was referring to AsA...

I'm NOT assuming it alpha, Jeff Boyd STATED this FACT at Tamworth. He said it, out loud & everybody heard it.
The name is Porter is offline  
Old 9th May 2016, 09:31
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not just big brother... you can get the registration data from CASA and use ADSB information to compile a real time list of "Rich people who are not at home"
they can pretty much do that now, so don't see the relevance
jas24zzk is offline  
Old 9th May 2016, 09:40
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Do you really think that? How would you make it better?
I do really think that, the level 2 managers are typical of: They can't ATC so we'll put 'em in managagement.

ASA management is full of inflated ego's, they do literally think they are the best in the world at ATC/ANSP. When you see how it works elsewhere, it's embarrassing when you come back here & experience the 'superior' service you receive.

What would I do? I believe Dick did it in the 90's, a review of resources, 3000 odd bludgers & floorwalkers made redundant. Word is that a review is happening now. At least a 1000 bludgers wouldn't be missed from that organisation, what would I know Alpha? Worked there for 26 years
The name is Porter is offline  
Old 9th May 2016, 09:42
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: act
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Akro,

what is the point of aircraft having ADSB out, if they are operating in an environment where there is no obligation on the authority monitoring it to provide any type of separation service? It doesn't make any sense! In Class G airspace in Australia there is no separation standards applied, therefore what is the point mandating a requirement for aircraft to transmit their position?? If there is no separation standards for AsA to apply, there is no such thing a loss of separation. If they were serious about providing a suitable level of service to IFR aircraft, we would have - as a minimum - Class E airspace wherever IFR aircraft operate, with procedural separation standards. Then the ADSB technology would be used to reduce these separation standards. Like the rest of the world is planning to do. But wait, apparently we are leading the rest of the world.....
Vref+5 is offline  
Old 9th May 2016, 10:01
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: meh
Posts: 674
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
Absolutely positive. Read through a whole bunch of ICAO meeting minutes to find out first hand.
Interesting........................................
Plazbot is offline  
Old 9th May 2016, 23:06
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,154
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
what is the point of aircraft having ADSB out, if they are operating in an environment where there is no obligation on the authority monitoring it to provide any type of separation service?
We'll assume you aren't a pilot, at least with experience in Class G.
Air Traffic Services are provided to aircraft in Class G airspace, traffic information to IFR is one.

Why have transponders operating in Class G?

Last edited by CaptainMidnight; 9th May 2016 at 23:41.
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 00:54
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sydney
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I think that a few people are missing one of the main benefits of ADS-B. The system allows for a pilot(with the appropriate equipment) to be aware of another aircraft without ATC assistance. This works without ground stations or equipment beyond that installed in the aircraft. The equipment to display an ADS-B equipped aircraft either on an EFB(Ipad) or a glass screen is relatively inexpensive.

Now whether that benefit (and reduced risk) justifies the cost is very debatable.
no_one is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 01:24
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: moon
Posts: 3,564
Received 90 Likes on 33 Posts
But No One - the very aircraft that are the threat - unalerted and perhaps radio less VFR aircraft are NOT required to have ADS-B out!
Sunfish is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 01:37
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sydney
Posts: 319
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Sunfish, I understand that and so does the FAA. They, in 2020, will require ADS-B for all aircraft, VFR and IFR, within the areas that a transponder is currently required over there.

All I was trying to point out was that the lack of ground stations does not mean the system is useless.
no_one is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 02:52
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,693
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think that a few people are missing one of the main benefits of ADS-B. The system allows for a pilot(with the appropriate equipment) to be aware of another aircraft without ATC assistance.
In the USA yes, In Australia, no. We are implementing ADS-B out, not ADS-B in like the US.

Yes, you can pick up nearby aircraft with non-TSO'd equipment, but you can do that now with mode C. You don't need ADS-B.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 03:03
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,693
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They, in 2020, will require ADS-B for all aircraft, VFR and IFR, within the areas that a transponder is currently required over there
Magic words are " within the areas that a transponder is currently required". With some caveats, this is largely only Class A, B & C airspace

Australia is the only country in the world that is mandating ADS_B for ALL IFR aircraft at ALL levels in ALL airspace types.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 07:05
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: meh
Posts: 674
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
No, it's not.
Plazbot is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 07:07
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: S37.54 E145.11
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ADSB Introduction - New Zealand

A number of posts have highlighted and/or implied that NZ agencies have taken the deliberate step of delaying introduction of ADS-B equipage until 2021 to align with the US implementation.

Whilst the scheduled implementation date for ADS-B in NZ is correct, the implication that the delay is deliberate to align with the US implementation schedule is false.

The fact is that NZ (to my knowledge) does not currently offer any ADS-B surveillance capability at all in its domestic FIR and that ADS-B surveillance capability will only become fully available in tandem with its Southern Sky ATM modernisation project which is only due for commissioning in 2021. By that date all existing radars will be decommissioned in favour of ADS-B surveillance. Leading up to 2021, ADS-B capability will be progressively introduced for controlled airspace operations starting from 2018. New Zealand will use the 1090 MHz extended squitter (ES) ADS-B system not the US UAT system.
QSK? is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 10:22
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: act
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Midnight,

you are correct, DTI is a service, albeit not one that provides any formal separation standards. Which is my point, it's Class G - there are no published separation standards, which means the authorities have determined the risk is not high enough to require ATC separation standards. If you are not going to provide a separation service, why mandate that aircraft must be fitted with equipment that is used to provide a separation service? It doesn't make any sense
Vref+5 is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 12:09
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Vref+5. If you you are IFR and enter 'controlled' airspace you receive an ATC route clearance. You also receive a separation service (which really is one in the same). It costs you a fee (navcharge) every time.

If you solely fly IFR in G (which, unless you are one of the few who operate a non-pressurised a/c IFR outside radar coverage, is pretty rare), you are still subject to position reporting and receive a DTI service.

If you only fly IFR in G, would you prefer a standard traffic statement (e.g "IFR traffic is XYZ, a Chieftain, was ABC at 08, A060, estimating YDEF at 25") on other IFRs, or "Traffic is XYZ, a Chieftain, maintaining A060, currently 10 miles in your 9 o'clock, tracking souhbound"?

Or even better, "additionally, VFR traffic VWX, departed YDEF at 09, passing A045, appears to be tracking northbound, intentions unknown"?

Hopefully the 'big sky' theory in Australia doesn't last forever. It'll only end in tears one way or another
Hempy is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 23:30
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,693
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hempy
Vref+5. If you you are IFR and enter 'controlled' airspace you receive an ATC route clearance. You also receive a separation service (which really is one in the same). It costs you a fee (navcharge) every time.

If you solely fly IFR in G (which, unless you are one of the few who operate a non-pressurised a/c IFR outside radar coverage, is pretty rare), you are still subject to position reporting and receive a DTI service.

If you only fly IFR in G, would you prefer a standard traffic statement (e.g "IFR traffic is XYZ, a Chieftain, was ABC at 08, A060, estimating YDEF at 25") on other IFRs, or "Traffic is XYZ, a Chieftain, maintaining A060, currently 10 miles in your 9 o'clock, tracking souhbound"?

Or even better, "additionally, VFR traffic VWX, departed YDEF at 09, passing A045, appears to be tracking northbound, intentions unknown"?

Hopefully the 'big sky' theory in Australia doesn't last forever. It'll only end in tears one way or another
Hempy I would suggest that there is a significant amount of traffic that flies IFR in class G only. If I fly IFR into regional airports, I seem to commonly come across traffic like this.

I reckon a fair number of these aircraft will continue to fly in IMC post 1Feb 2017 without ADS-B and no-one will ever know.

One of my problems with ADS-B is that it is being applied in a heavy handed manner to IFR aircraft, but not VFR. My only anxious moments about mid air conflicts have occurred when I was IFR and in each case involved conflicting VFR traffic cruising at over 5,000 ft at non ICAO levels in class G airspace. ADS-B will do nothing to improve my safety in these circumstances.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that AsA is under any mandate to pass on VFR traffic to me. I think it's done on an "as available" or " as workload allows" basis.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 23:56
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,882
Received 193 Likes on 100 Posts
Unfortunately it's always been that way Old Akro. I recall once hearing a request for IFR traffic and being told there was none, quickly followed by a request for VFR for which there was half a dozen, a number of which were heading for a potential direct conflict.
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 10th May 2016, 23:59
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,154
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
equipment that is used to provide a separation service?
Because the equipment - SSR transponders and ADS-B squitters - are also used to provide DTI and other services, not just separation -
CaptainMidnight is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.