Don’t Kowtow to CASA ADSB Mandate if Safety is Improved by Spending Money Elsewhere
Hey Jab,
Re ' I think the VFR post 2020 deal would be an excellent idea '.....
How much do ya reckon for a DH-82 to be 'so equipped'..?? 'Tis a VFR DH-82.....
That's the complete package, ADSB unit (Out / In?), plus the 'Approved GPS Source' Plus the EO, Plus maybe a bigger generator or alternator, plus....
And the cost / benefit??
Cost - As I told Mr Skidmore, potentially a quarter to a third of the value of the aircraft.
Benefit - **** ALL....
"Look before ya leap"....
Cheers
Re ' I think the VFR post 2020 deal would be an excellent idea '.....
How much do ya reckon for a DH-82 to be 'so equipped'..?? 'Tis a VFR DH-82.....
That's the complete package, ADSB unit (Out / In?), plus the 'Approved GPS Source' Plus the EO, Plus maybe a bigger generator or alternator, plus....
And the cost / benefit??
Cost - As I told Mr Skidmore, potentially a quarter to a third of the value of the aircraft.
Benefit - **** ALL....
"Look before ya leap"....
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 19th Apr 2016 at 14:55. Reason: Clarity.....
Originally Posted by Dick Smith
Others report Willy Approach also can't display ADSB returns.
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Griffo, it would not affect you. Read the FAA rulings 
Unless you fly in certain places, which it might then do. But unlikely.
But the big, massive, humungus red undo Dick gave you would cover it easily.
Unless you fly in certain places, which it might then do. But unlikely.
But the big, massive, humungus red undo Dick gave you would cover it easily.
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Dick Smith,
Dick, have you been to talk to the folk who know about this stuff? I am but a mere "nobody" and what would I know about aviation anyway, but I have worked it out.
In the terminal area's where 3NM separation standards are used they have a requirement for Primary Radar backing a high speed Mode S radar. Now the Mode S transponder just happens to be the same bit of gear that when plugged into the magenta line generator, it gives the enroute guys your ADSB.
Its all there but different layers are used for different purposes.
I am sure someone who really knows what they are talking about could explain it better for you.
The ground stations are not the whole problem.
Airservices don't appear to have put in the hard work and money to have the ADSB returns shown in the terminal facilities in Sydney and Canberra. Others report Willy Approach also can't display ADSB returns.
What a con. GA has to pay over $30 million and it doesn't even work in busy terminal airspace where risk is higher.
And yes, lots would support the US ADSB requirement for VFR if Australia allowed the freedoms of the US system for VFR. But that's unlikely to happen .
Airservices don't appear to have put in the hard work and money to have the ADSB returns shown in the terminal facilities in Sydney and Canberra. Others report Willy Approach also can't display ADSB returns.
What a con. GA has to pay over $30 million and it doesn't even work in busy terminal airspace where risk is higher.
And yes, lots would support the US ADSB requirement for VFR if Australia allowed the freedoms of the US system for VFR. But that's unlikely to happen .
In the terminal area's where 3NM separation standards are used they have a requirement for Primary Radar backing a high speed Mode S radar. Now the Mode S transponder just happens to be the same bit of gear that when plugged into the magenta line generator, it gives the enroute guys your ADSB.
Its all there but different layers are used for different purposes.
I am sure someone who really knows what they are talking about could explain it better for you.
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Dick, the expensive high speed TAR's are only in the big airports and have limited range.
Different to the out in the boonies radars.
Ask the guys who really know about it….I am just a nobody, you know that.
Different to the out in the boonies radars.
Ask the guys who really know about it….I am just a nobody, you know that.
via peterc005:
...ADSB and the new integrated ATC system will lift Australian aviation navigation to a leading place in the world.
...ADSB and the new integrated ATC system will lift Australian aviation navigation to a leading place in the world.
It is increasingly being recognised that terrorist groups will be using bomb drones for attacks. Unless in visual range, these bomb drone attacks need GPS to be effective. There is as yet no viable defence to terrorist bomb drone attacks short of turning off civvy GPS.
I am yet to see anything from ASA or CASA addressing the bomb drone risk and the loss of GPS.
.
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 21st Apr 2016 at 07:42.
Meanwhile, out in the real world...
""...the dangerous capabilities of drones are increasing and yet they are already being used by terrorists and activists. “The technology of remote-control warfare is impossible to control,” the report says.
“Islamic State [Isis] is reportedly obsessed with launching a synchronised multi-drone attack on large numbers of people in order to recreate the horrors of 9/11.” The report points out that Isis is already using drones for reconnaissance in Iraq and Syria...""
UK should prepare for use of drones in terrorist attacks, says thinktank | UK news | The Guardian
.
""...the dangerous capabilities of drones are increasing and yet they are already being used by terrorists and activists. “The technology of remote-control warfare is impossible to control,” the report says.
“Islamic State [Isis] is reportedly obsessed with launching a synchronised multi-drone attack on large numbers of people in order to recreate the horrors of 9/11.” The report points out that Isis is already using drones for reconnaissance in Iraq and Syria...""
UK should prepare for use of drones in terrorist attacks, says thinktank | UK news | The Guardian
.
Folks,
One practical item missing in this discussion, in US, UAT ADS-B is available for all un-pressurised (a bit of a simplification) aircraft at a fraction of the price of 1090ES transponders and associated bits and pieces.
US GA already has a "cheap" system available, which is part of the reason why 1090ES is not going to become a whole lot cheaper --- because the mass market will be UAT, not a tarted up bit of seriously data constrained ancient technology, whose heritage is WWII IFF.
The big production numbers will be UAT, with further price drops --- all of NBUAA to aviation is Australia.
The fact remains (although ignored by most of you) that ADS-B in Australia was never an answer to a demonstrated risk, let alone a cost/benefit justified measure.
"Somebody" decided we were going to have it, and that was that, and to hell with the cost --- except of course, for AsA cost savings, because all IFR will have a C-145/146 GPS as a "side effect" of the ADS-B mandate.
Forcing the adoption of C-145/146 GPS and the Navaid Rationalisation program it "enabled", was the real driver for the ADS-B mandate.
I do have to have a bit of a (hollow) laugh when everybody so studiously ignores the "elephant in the room".
Tootle pip!!
One practical item missing in this discussion, in US, UAT ADS-B is available for all un-pressurised (a bit of a simplification) aircraft at a fraction of the price of 1090ES transponders and associated bits and pieces.
US GA already has a "cheap" system available, which is part of the reason why 1090ES is not going to become a whole lot cheaper --- because the mass market will be UAT, not a tarted up bit of seriously data constrained ancient technology, whose heritage is WWII IFF.
The big production numbers will be UAT, with further price drops --- all of NBUAA to aviation is Australia.
The fact remains (although ignored by most of you) that ADS-B in Australia was never an answer to a demonstrated risk, let alone a cost/benefit justified measure.
"Somebody" decided we were going to have it, and that was that, and to hell with the cost --- except of course, for AsA cost savings, because all IFR will have a C-145/146 GPS as a "side effect" of the ADS-B mandate.
Forcing the adoption of C-145/146 GPS and the Navaid Rationalisation program it "enabled", was the real driver for the ADS-B mandate.
I do have to have a bit of a (hollow) laugh when everybody so studiously ignores the "elephant in the room".
Tootle pip!!
Duck Smith said
Are you advocating for the widespread roll out of additional radars to cover more and more airspace? That is, radar coverage across mainland Australia plus Tasmania, and the installation of Terminal radars at all Towered airports?
And how much would that all cost?
So why the incredibly expensive ADSB mandate if mode S will do. My whole point.
And how much would that all cost?
Cessnock eh? They've got that far then. Pity there's nothing but 'sort yourselves out, cus we can't see ya' at airline hubs like Dubbo, Merimbula and Moruya.
Just don't head too far West from Cessnock. You'll soon hear 'identification terminated'. ADS-B costs more than your plane is worth and is next to useless.
The best place to get ADS-B information is from Flightaware. They seem to be able to receive ADS-B information anywhere they have a member sitting at home in their lounge room with a $10 home made receiver.... And then publish it on their website. Why are ASA finding this such a challenge and spending sooooo much of our money?
Just don't head too far West from Cessnock. You'll soon hear 'identification terminated'. ADS-B costs more than your plane is worth and is next to useless.
The best place to get ADS-B information is from Flightaware. They seem to be able to receive ADS-B information anywhere they have a member sitting at home in their lounge room with a $10 home made receiver.... And then publish it on their website. Why are ASA finding this such a challenge and spending sooooo much of our money?
There is an awful lot of Australia west of Cessnock. Pretty sure you'd get reidentified somewhere along the way.
