1,500 or 2,000ft?
Thread Starter
1,500 or 2,000ft?
Aviators,
What's the general consensus on this?
It seems clear that a 1,500 ft circuit exists for "fast" aircraft over 150knots etc, however in the real world is seems that nobody is approaching airfields at 2,000ft as would be required.
I have never heard anyone approaching your average CTAF at 2,000ft since this was introduced. Am I confused in that it's recommended and not mantatory?
If it is recommended, are pilots listening for the presence of "fast" traffic and simply sticking with a 1,500ft approach to the airfield? How do we know the they are fast, listen for a Qantas call sign or similar?
How does this all work out at places like Wagga where the turboprops fly in RPT?
What's the general consensus on this?
It seems clear that a 1,500 ft circuit exists for "fast" aircraft over 150knots etc, however in the real world is seems that nobody is approaching airfields at 2,000ft as would be required.
I have never heard anyone approaching your average CTAF at 2,000ft since this was introduced. Am I confused in that it's recommended and not mantatory?
If it is recommended, are pilots listening for the presence of "fast" traffic and simply sticking with a 1,500ft approach to the airfield? How do we know the they are fast, listen for a Qantas call sign or similar?
How does this all work out at places like Wagga where the turboprops fly in RPT?
Thread Starter
No more takers? Surely everyone does this on a daily basis when out flying...?
The lack of takers is probably because what you assert is clear and required is ... not:
It seems clear that a 1,500 ft circuit exists for "fast" aircraft over 150knots etc, however in the real world is seems that nobody is approaching airfields at 2,000ft as would be required
The 150kt speed refers to speed in the circuit and the reality is that while many GA aircraft CRUISE over 150kt, very, very few would do 150kt or more in the circuit. Most fast aircraft would be at IAP procedure speed or gear extension speed in the circuit and 120 kts is a common speed for this.
I'm not really sure who this applies to, maybe a Citation or something, but no GA single or light twin that I know of.
I'm not really sure who this applies to, maybe a Citation or something, but no GA single or light twin that I know of.
Thread Starter
I'm not really sure who this applies to, maybe a Citation or something, but no GA single or light twin that I know of.
I've asked this because it came up recently at a regional airfield where someone was "abused" for attempting to fly over an airfield at 1,500ft as 1,500ft circuits were in use by a high speed aircraft and I was wondering how frequent that is.... seemingly not very, based on the responses.
I think the standard phraseology in that circumstance is: "Forgive me oh fast skygod. I shall continue downwind until thou condescend to my returning to thine vicinity."
I've never encountered a 'fast' aircraft joining and carrying out a 1,500' circuit. If I heard calls from an aircraft doing that at an aerodrome to which I was inbound, I would do what I do everywhere else: have a chat and decide how best to ensure separation on arrival.
Faced with abuse (never happened to me and I don't expect it ever to happen) I would use the standard ICAO phraseology: "Piss off, stupid."
I've never encountered a 'fast' aircraft joining and carrying out a 1,500' circuit. If I heard calls from an aircraft doing that at an aerodrome to which I was inbound, I would do what I do everywhere else: have a chat and decide how best to ensure separation on arrival.
Faced with abuse (never happened to me and I don't expect it ever to happen) I would use the standard ICAO phraseology: "Piss off, stupid."
I've never encountered a 'fast' aircraft joining and carrying out a 1,500' circuit. If I heard calls from an aircraft doing that at an aerodrome to which I was inbound, I would do what I do everywhere else: have a chat and decide how best to ensure separation on arrival.
You've never been to a CTAF aerodrome that has RPT jet traffic?
Agreed that abuse is uncalled for.
I'm yet to encounter RPT regionals or RFDS 'doing a circuit'. Always straight in or via base.
Not to say it doesn't happen.
But I'm yet to mix it with RPT or RFDS in circumstances in which they care whether I'm proposing to overfly at 1,500', 2,000' or 250'.
Not to say it doesn't happen.
But I'm yet to mix it with RPT or RFDS in circumstances in which they care whether I'm proposing to overfly at 1,500', 2,000' or 250'.
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the ambos into Shepp usually do straight in approaches but I pricked my ears up the other day because I heard him ask someone in the circuit what the sock was doing.
He decided to join downwind instead which I thought was a good call because it was straight out and it could have been interesting had he persisted with his original call.
Kaz
He decided to join downwind instead which I thought was a good call because it was straight out and it could have been interesting had he persisted with his original call.
Kaz
Ah I see. We used to regularly join overhead at Moomba in the BAe146, but it just worked out efficiently that way. If the runway was aligned differently we'd have been joining straight in or downwind. And indeed we wouldn't care what height you were at as long as you weren't there when we were there.
I guess that's my point... you don't really know who / what is there before you get there. You might hear "Citation ABC turning downwind for 18" or something and unless they say their circuit height, you are blissfully unaware as you approach at 1,500ft.
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RPTs and others conduct 1,500 foot circuits at Wagga on a daily basis, along with straight ins, against or with the traffic.
None of it is a problem.
Also no need to "have a chat" about it.
In a SAAB last week, we had 240kt GS at 5NM and 200kt into downwind with a 15kt tail component. Captain confirmed 180 indicated as typical onto downwind.
None of it is a problem.
Also no need to "have a chat" about it.
In a SAAB last week, we had 240kt GS at 5NM and 200kt into downwind with a 15kt tail component. Captain confirmed 180 indicated as typical onto downwind.
In the large turboprop I fly, most of the time we will do a straight in approach if we can. This can be in the form of an RNAV approach, a 5 mile final or a base join, which will put us on a 3 mile final. Bear in mind, as per CAR 166, we need to know what the wind is doing before we can do this. Some places we fly to don't have any TAFS/METARS/AWIS available, so guess what? I overfly the airfield at 2000 AGL and look at the wind sock then join the circuit. We join at about 170 -190kt, so I fly a 1500' circuit. Sometimes I join the circuit for traffic separation. The main thing is, I COMMUNICATE what I am doing.
I have made a similar post to this elsewhere before but have repeated it again here as I think that it is relevant in the discussion about mixing air traffic of different levels of performance.
The image below is extracted from CAP166-1(3). I have marked up the images below with some of the potential conflicts where aircraft of different performances operate.
The methods of joining the have different levels of conflict if there are aircraft of varying performance in the circuit.
Joining at 45
This option also gives you a good view of the field and time to set up but has the advantage of allowing you to adjust the position you join the circuit to slot in with others. In my opinion at most fields this is my preferred entry and is the preferred entry in the USA(refer AIM FIG 4−3−2) If you have descended to your circuit height prior to joining it is difficult to have a conflict with an aircraft of different performance.
Joining a circuit on Downwind
This option give you a good view of the airstrip and a good change to see that it is clear check the wind etc but If there are existing aircraft in the circuit it can be hard to slot in well as your only option is to speed up or slow down. This can be made more difficult if the other aircraft is operating at the same height as you but is substantially faster or slower.
Arriving above Circuit height and descending on the "dead" side
It gives you plenty of time to slot into the circuit and a very good opportunity to look for traffic and the field however there are several potential conflicts with this option. Aircraft that are departing overhead are likely to be conflicting traffic when you turn and begin descending to get to circuit height. They will potentially be in you blind spot being behind you just before you turn. The other potential conflict is with a high performance aircraft taking off from a good length runway. As you cross over the airstrip at circuit height they may only be a few hundred feet below you.
Additionally you have to lose 1000 feet fairly quickly, in slick aircraft that can be hard. The other issue with this arrival is that often there is either a noise sensitive area (town) or high terrain on the dead side of the circuit and you are doing maneuvering in this area. For some reason this seems to be the preferred entry in Australia, at least by the instructors I have had.
Joining on Base Leg
In my mind this is only preferred when the strip is well known and this is the direction you are approaching from. It docent give you time to look at the field or slot in though adjusting base leg in or out to fit with other traffic is possible. With aircraft of differing performance you have to be aware of the higher performance aircraft on a longer final as they may be under the nose. This can be made safer if the pilot decides to do a low approach to have a look at the runway and windsock and then a full stop landing on the next one. (ie a go around but premeditated)
Straight In
Similar to joining on base only worse for being able to slot in with other traffic.
The image below is extracted from CAP166-1(3). I have marked up the images below with some of the potential conflicts where aircraft of different performances operate.
The methods of joining the have different levels of conflict if there are aircraft of varying performance in the circuit.
Joining at 45
This option also gives you a good view of the field and time to set up but has the advantage of allowing you to adjust the position you join the circuit to slot in with others. In my opinion at most fields this is my preferred entry and is the preferred entry in the USA(refer AIM FIG 4−3−2) If you have descended to your circuit height prior to joining it is difficult to have a conflict with an aircraft of different performance.
Joining a circuit on Downwind
This option give you a good view of the airstrip and a good change to see that it is clear check the wind etc but If there are existing aircraft in the circuit it can be hard to slot in well as your only option is to speed up or slow down. This can be made more difficult if the other aircraft is operating at the same height as you but is substantially faster or slower.
Arriving above Circuit height and descending on the "dead" side
It gives you plenty of time to slot into the circuit and a very good opportunity to look for traffic and the field however there are several potential conflicts with this option. Aircraft that are departing overhead are likely to be conflicting traffic when you turn and begin descending to get to circuit height. They will potentially be in you blind spot being behind you just before you turn. The other potential conflict is with a high performance aircraft taking off from a good length runway. As you cross over the airstrip at circuit height they may only be a few hundred feet below you.
Additionally you have to lose 1000 feet fairly quickly, in slick aircraft that can be hard. The other issue with this arrival is that often there is either a noise sensitive area (town) or high terrain on the dead side of the circuit and you are doing maneuvering in this area. For some reason this seems to be the preferred entry in Australia, at least by the instructors I have had.
Joining on Base Leg
In my mind this is only preferred when the strip is well known and this is the direction you are approaching from. It docent give you time to look at the field or slot in though adjusting base leg in or out to fit with other traffic is possible. With aircraft of differing performance you have to be aware of the higher performance aircraft on a longer final as they may be under the nose. This can be made safer if the pilot decides to do a low approach to have a look at the runway and windsock and then a full stop landing on the next one. (ie a go around but premeditated)
Straight In
Similar to joining on base only worse for being able to slot in with other traffic.
Run me through the logic of your "requires 1,000' descent" box. Why?
And why are aircraft departing overhead at circuit height on the dead side?
And why are aircraft departing overhead at circuit height on the dead side?
Thread Starter
It's a 1,000 ft descent because you are in theory required to be at 2,000 ft on approach and you need to get down to 1,000 ft standard <150 knots circuit height.
It's a 1,000 ft descent because you are in theory required to be at 2,000 ft on approach and you need to get down to 1,000 ft standard <150 knots circuit height
Run me through the logic of your "requires 1,000' descent" box. Why?
And why are aircraft departing overhead at circuit height on the dead side?
Not trying to be offensive, no one, but how much time have you actually spent flying in and out of non-controlled aerodromes?
My experience may be atypical, but I have:
- never joined crosswind when a high performance aircraft happened to be taking off at the same time
- never *arrived* at a height greater than 1,500' above the aerodrome (unless my TOPD and descent calculations and management have been inaccurate and poor ...
)
- never joined downwind or dead side when an aircraft happened to be departing overhead.
There's lots and lots of nothing going on out there at non-controlled aerodromes, punctuated by the occasional flurry of entirely mundane and easily manageable activity. That includes places like Mildura, Wagga, Broken Hill, Kalgoorlie ....
And don't confuse the CAAP for requirements.
My experience may be atypical, but I have:
- never joined crosswind when a high performance aircraft happened to be taking off at the same time
- never *arrived* at a height greater than 1,500' above the aerodrome (unless my TOPD and descent calculations and management have been inaccurate and poor ...
)- never joined downwind or dead side when an aircraft happened to be departing overhead.
There's lots and lots of nothing going on out there at non-controlled aerodromes, punctuated by the occasional flurry of entirely mundane and easily manageable activity. That includes places like Mildura, Wagga, Broken Hill, Kalgoorlie ....
And don't confuse the CAAP for requirements.
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 21st Apr 2016 at 10:21. Reason: * mistakenly said "joined crosswind" in original post.