Australian Class E article – the full text
Thread Starter
How about. I find this really mysterious. You have obviously been involved for many years
In Airspace and attempting to stop the changes I have wanted by copying the best in the world.
Yet you post anonymously on this site and have never phoned me to have a discussion .
Who are you? Why are you secret? What's going on? Are you Voices of Reason?
Why would you do this? Is it how you run your life ?
In Airspace and attempting to stop the changes I have wanted by copying the best in the world.
Yet you post anonymously on this site and have never phoned me to have a discussion .
Who are you? Why are you secret? What's going on? Are you Voices of Reason?
Why would you do this? Is it how you run your life ?
Yet you post anonymously on this site and have never phoned me to have a discussion .
Who are you? Why are you secret? What's going on? Are you Voices of Reason?
Why would you do this? Is it how you run your life ?
Who are you? Why are you secret? What's going on? Are you Voices of Reason?
Why would you do this? Is it how you run your life ?
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Yet you post anonymously on this site and have never phoned me to have a discussion .
Who are you? Why are you secret? What's going on? Are you Voices of Reason?
Why would you do this? Is it how you run your life ?
Once again, opinion and 'I want' just doesn't wash.
If you persist with what 'we' regard as re-writing history, 'we' will rebut.
Thread Starter
Howabout. What would you then do with the present " half wound back" situation if you were in Mr Skidmores position? Or do you think the present airspace is satisfactory and needs no change?
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Or do you think the present airspace is satisfactory and needs no change?
Given my past, my intuition tells me that the pure US CTAF model is the way to go (and I've always felt that way); and that Class E down to 700 AGL makes sense. But that is just MY OPINION!
My opinion, like yours, doesn't count for squat. Change must be predicated on analyses and facts: cost/benefit and risk analysis are the only rational determinants; not opinion!
Thread Starter
Ok. We should be working together as we do have something in common.
Personally I don't believe we could afford to have every airport with an IFR approach with class E to 700 agl.
I prefer the Canadian system ( which parts of our NAS decision was based on) where low density airports remain with class G.
No need for low level E at places like Bourke and Birdsville.
And my opinion , like yours does count. How do you think I made the original changes? Those at CASA have no stated view on Airspace design if it involves change. Or if they have they are not game to be open about that view. Really sad.
That's why we can have an effect.
Personally I don't believe we could afford to have every airport with an IFR approach with class E to 700 agl.
I prefer the Canadian system ( which parts of our NAS decision was based on) where low density airports remain with class G.
No need for low level E at places like Bourke and Birdsville.
And my opinion , like yours does count. How do you think I made the original changes? Those at CASA have no stated view on Airspace design if it involves change. Or if they have they are not game to be open about that view. Really sad.
That's why we can have an effect.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 3rd Apr 2016 at 01:46.
Why should 'deeper pockets' matter, Leady, if your argument is credible?
Simple, really, truth is not an absolute defence to an accusation of libel.
Better than years ago, but still not absolute, according to one of the busiest defo. SCs at the Sydney bar.
Tootle pip!!
You do realise that if I give you a clearance on the ground then I can't clear anyone else in or out until I can positively establish separation? Same as if I clear you for an instrument approach I can't clear anyone else in or out until I can positively establish you've either landed or are clear of the area of conflict
Thread Starter
Yes. Just like operating from Coffs.
That is if you are allowed to use proper proven procedural separation standards like they do in Canada and the USA.
And at a non tower airport it won't effect any competent pilot because they wait on the ground if someone else is shooting an approach in IMC. Once VMC exists the NAS operates like our class G airspace.
I have flown IFR in lots of terminal E in the USA. Most has zero radar coverage from the IAF. Delays are no measurably different than in Australia. Same in Canada
Open up your mind. Le Pin
That is if you are allowed to use proper proven procedural separation standards like they do in Canada and the USA.
And at a non tower airport it won't effect any competent pilot because they wait on the ground if someone else is shooting an approach in IMC. Once VMC exists the NAS operates like our class G airspace.
I have flown IFR in lots of terminal E in the USA. Most has zero radar coverage from the IAF. Delays are no measurably different than in Australia. Same in Canada
Open up your mind. Le Pin
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Howabout,
Simple, really, truth is not an absolute defence to an accusation of libel.
Simple, really, truth is not an absolute defence to an accusation of libel.
How anyone could threaten you, from a 'legal' perspective, totally disgusts me. Just can't figure the motive for such a venal threat.
Once VMC exists the NAS operates like our class G airspace.
The other significant issue is managing CTAF traffic at the same time. I have been in the multi-aircraft scenario numerous times, where Class E would be a total embuggerance: being controlled by ATC on one radio and having to negotiate separation with a VFR on the other radio on the CTAF. That is an accident just waiting to happen.
I vaguely recall a conversation I had with a friend who had just returned from Canada after 2 years of Medical flying over there. I will be upfront and say that I can't recall all the specifics of it, so I am presuming that a few of the more worldly operators here can perhaps correct or clarify any of the following.
I seem to recall him saying that there was a bit of an unwritten rule that in VMC on approach there was an expectation of cancelling IFR and proceeding VFR so the next departure could get away into the class E. So it was a one in one out type scenario with the controller being remotely located in a tower elsewhere (I think).
Firstly, does that sound about right to anyone?
Secondly, if so, do our airlines have the scope/desire to cancel IFR on descent to make this work? Otherwise I can't see how E will be better than 1 in 1 out in IMC or VMC even with the US standards (which from memory aren't signficantly different to ours).
I seem to recall him saying that there was a bit of an unwritten rule that in VMC on approach there was an expectation of cancelling IFR and proceeding VFR so the next departure could get away into the class E. So it was a one in one out type scenario with the controller being remotely located in a tower elsewhere (I think).
Firstly, does that sound about right to anyone?
Secondly, if so, do our airlines have the scope/desire to cancel IFR on descent to make this work? Otherwise I can't see how E will be better than 1 in 1 out in IMC or VMC even with the US standards (which from memory aren't signficantly different to ours).
I love it! So the only reason it works is because they downgrade to VFR and use the same dirt road rules we use.
I can't separate the arriving aircraft from you if I don't know where you are, so they get to wait.
I can't separate the arriving aircraft from you if I don't know where you are, so they get to wait.
if so, do our airlines have the scope/desire to cancel IFR on descent
Last edited by CaptainMidnight; 3rd Apr 2016 at 09:41.
And thus descend into the lowest category airspace established even in third world countries.
Must be a better way ...
Must be a better way ...
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I seem to recall him saying that there was a bit of an unwritten rule that in VMC on approach there was an expectation of cancelling IFR and proceeding VFR so the next departure could get away into the class E.
Something we should import with E down to 700 AGL in very selected locations. But that is just my opinion and cost/benefit and risk analysis must take primacy.
Thread Starter
You all win.( other than Howabout) You have convinced me that the class E terminal airspace that's used in just about every other leading aviation country in the world can't possibly work here.
Just a hint of how it works overseas. When you cancel IFR in E in VMC it then works like our class G. When you are in IMC class E works exactly like class A.
But it could not possibly work here so make sure it's not even tried at even one airport- say Benalla where our present system allowed five or was it six fatalities?
Resist resist resist any change in every way you can - you and others have stopped it so far for 25 years. Wait for another serious accident with more fatalities for a Royal Commission to bring in the international proven safer system.
And our airlines already fly around in Class G now. That's just like E after the pilot has cancelled IFR. But our airlines couldn't possibly do that ! Are they that dopey?
Just a hint of how it works overseas. When you cancel IFR in E in VMC it then works like our class G. When you are in IMC class E works exactly like class A.
But it could not possibly work here so make sure it's not even tried at even one airport- say Benalla where our present system allowed five or was it six fatalities?
Resist resist resist any change in every way you can - you and others have stopped it so far for 25 years. Wait for another serious accident with more fatalities for a Royal Commission to bring in the international proven safer system.
And our airlines already fly around in Class G now. That's just like E after the pilot has cancelled IFR. But our airlines couldn't possibly do that ! Are they that dopey?