Caravan C208 Annual Servicing Costs - $33,837

[Hasherucf]

*How about a written guarantee of your work (when you f#ck up & the aircraft has to return for rectification, you fix it no questions asked).

Do that, we jokingly call it warranty work . Person who f**ks it up fixes it on their own time.

*How about a fixed price service for a 100 hourly, that is, the things that you do EVERY 100 hourly are at a fixed price.

Not practical . Take a King air , several phase checks with different requirements.

*How about you call me before you undertake extra or unexpected work

.

Sure , we had a 500$ limit before . Over that we had to consult client. Their rules not ours.

*How about you don't charge your apprentice out at a LAME rate.

Last two shops I worked at had different rates for people LAME/AME/APP

*How about getting to together with all your LAME mates, institute a charter of work quality, rights and responsibilities.

Part145 does that , forces it onto the industry. Maybe that over regulation you are against .

When you've done all that I'll gladly pay you $120 per hour

Ha-ha you think we charge that little

[Supermouse3]

back to the topic of the caravan maintenance, of which yes costs a lot- but its hardly designed for a private operation...if you only flew a beaver or Navajo for 50 hours a year, I guarantee you it would cost the same, if not more!
I know of a guy who owns a C340- last 100hourly cost him around 65k.. mostly because he rarely flew it that year.. and that's for an aircraft that's worth maybe 1/4 of your caravan.
an aircraft that is only flown 50 hours a year is not worth owning- if you desperately want to keep it- why not offer it out to commercial rated pilots seeking turbine time? surely it wouldn't be worth more than a baron to rent?
you wouldn't be asking why it cost so much to maintain for 50hours of flying then.
the less you fly an aircraft- the more it costs you per hour for maintenance,

planes are like owning classic cars- not meant to sit in the garage as a decoration, but to be used and used hard, and if you have an appreciation for that then who cares what the maintenance costs.. no one complains about the cost of a doctors appointment when your sick, last time I checked more than $120/h...

[Band a Lot]

*How about a written guarantee of your work (when you f#ck up & the aircraft has to return for rectification, you fix it no questions asked).


I don't give written nor do I ask you to sign a credit application form - I take your word and give mine. A staff member dropped a 1700 hr cylinder the other day I replaced it with a 300 hr one, if our work is wrong we fix it but not if a part is the fault.

*How about a fixed price service for a 100 hourly, that is, the things that you do EVERY 100 hourly are at a fixed price.

I do and that is simply the 100 hr/ annual inspection stuff - 500 hr mag, aircraft reweigh, COA 100.5 stuff IS EXTRA. This at a reduced hr rate to additional as high or low trained staff will work on it. it is based on manufactures and industry standards for said hours.

*How about you call me before you undertake extra or unexpected work.

I prefer to email, that way I can prove you said JUST DO IT I NEED IT TOMORROW! but if it is 1 or 3 hours and you know about the fault I wont bother you.

*How about you don't charge your apprentice out at a LAME rate.

Why not? I do but only charge the hours it would take a LAME to do the same - look above that apprentice cost me a cylinder. Will you let me use your aircraft at cost?

*How about getting to together with all your LAME mates, institute a charter of work quality, rights and responsibilities.

Call CASA for exact details of this or check the CASA website it is all listed there.

When you've done all that I'll gladly pay you $120 per hour

I for last 2 or 3 years have charged $126 + gst, for the likes of yourself I would be happy to charge around the $500 + mark, or $1,000 if you wish to call my private mobile #, and weekend calls at double time, other after hours calls at time and a half. I would also require a signed detail of all loose items left on aircraft and working order - confirmed by LAME and yourself at your cost for his time. (I had 6 bottles of oil and 3 headsets - were are they now! {in your hangar where you left them!!})

[DutyofCare]

GET A DASH 12

Hey C208 operators > reduce your annual operating costs by about $6000 p/yr, save the wallet & do yourselves a BIG FAVOR with the DASH-12 GARRETT TEXAS TURBINE CONVERSION.

Apart from RPT ops = you'll be as happy a Larry

SAVE ON TBO's, FUEL, OIL & HOT END INSPECTIONS.

We know of 3 x operators whom are converting more of their C208 as I write.

SEE THE LIGHT

[The name is Porter]

you should take your concerns up with your LAME,

Yeah..............been there, done that.

not force every engineering organization to write up some 'charter of work quality, rights and responsibilities'

Too hard yeah? Every professional industry does it, why should you lot be different?

which would take money, time, coordination and negotiation-who's going to fund it?

You lot are, who else would fund it tell you what, I did it for my organisation, I'll do it for for nicks so long as you get it legalled.

if you have concerns with an organization- then speak up, if they don't listen then don't use them.

Yeah, and get reamed on the next 100 hourly but another of your lot because 'they don't know the plane'

[Metro man]

What is the average age of a LAME in Australia ? Last time I checked it was around 50, it's not a profession youngsters are clamouring to get into for the money.

If a plumber messes up, you have a water leak which he comes back and fixes. If a LAME messes up you have a disaster. See what it costs to rent a hangar at Bankstown airport compared to parking your ute in the garage. A plumbers tools aren't as specialised as a LAMEs, nor does he have endless paperwork and ever changing regulations to keep up with.

Other than for a love of aviation, I can't understand why anyone would want to go into aircraft engineering.

[Supermouse3]

if you aren't prepared to foot the costs of maintaining an aircraft then don't own one.

[Hasherucf]

I'm sorry are we a profession now and not a trade ? The word Engineer in the title doesn't give use an admission to Engineers Association Australia. Last I heard we were a trade and studied at TAFE. I will ask my Tiler/Plumber tomorrow if they have a 'charter of work quality, rights and responsibilities'.

Personally I would be happier with the word Mechanic as I believe it would also boost wages.

If you have missed Part 145 you will note all MRO's will need a QA system, Tool control , SMS etc. You will see maintenance cost rise due to this as the cost of compliance is huge.

[The name is Porter]

It's pretty simple to me, if you worked to a charter & are ethical I'd use your services. I reckon Band a Lot is close to the mark, you in the Melbourne area?

[aaandrogerthat]

Wow, vitriolic! Someone doesn't like paying for safety! Ginger beers deserve a little better me thinks...

*How about a written guarantee of your work (when you f#ck up & the aircraft has to return for rectification, you fix it no questions asked).

* How about you fly the most complex approach without an adequate/old/unreadable plate in the most terrible weather with the customer looking over your shoulder threatening not to pay the bill if you mess up. Then document every part of that flight in a permanent record available for scrutiny for the life of the aircraft. Document every minor altitude bust or airspace infringment, every W&B miscalculation, every time you TX'd on the wrong frequency etc etc. ANY f#ck up on your part on ANY flight could result in the customer not paying or threatening to take action against you or CASA taking action against you.

*How about a fixed price service for a 100 hourly, that is, the things that you do EVERY 100 hourly are at a fixed price.

* How about you charge per direct kilometer for ALL flights/charters. After all, it's ALWAYS a fixed distance between two places. But when you quote for the job you don't know the weather, pax numbers, fuel burn, speed or even the final destination.

*How about you call me before you undertake extra or unexpected work.

* How about you don't have unrealistic expectations of when a job can be complete. How about not expecting a maintenance org to answer a phone at any hour day or night. Confine all communications to between 0830-1630. If a minor defect is found at 1615 on Friday it can wait until Monday for your approval

*How about you don't charge your apprentice out at a LAME rate.

* I don't know any shops that do, but no problems, maybe said apprentice will work without direct supervision on your pride and joy. Alternatively no more apprentices because shops can't afford to train them.

*How about getting to together with all your LAME mates, institute a charter of work quality, rights and responsibilities.

* I'm sure all LAME's will be happy to do that immediately all pilots and operators do the same. It could be based on what they come up with?

When you've done all that I'll gladly pay you $120 per hour

* Ha! I doubt it..

At the end of the day, engineers are human too. Humans make mistakes.

Pilots can park the aircraft and walk away secure in the knowledge that flight is OVER and there is absolutely further chance of any property or personal damage occurring from that particular flight.

An engineer gets harassed continuously by the customer, time pressure/$$ etc, gets distracted and then makes a tiny error without noticing (say mis-drilling a hole in a wing spar- human error) The engineer then documents the drilling of this hole in the logbooks. Ten years later the wing comes off due to a crack forming at that hole. The engineer then gets dragged before the courts and charged.

An operator buys an absolute POS because it was cheap and then expects cut-price maintenance but full warranty when something goes wrong... Why would anyone want to be an engineer???

[Band a Lot]

you in the Melbourne area? No Far from.

[jas24zzk]

*How about you don't charge your apprentice out at a LAME rate.

And this is the very reason there are so few apprentices being trained in an ageing workforce.

Unlike my own industry the level of supervision required for an apprentice AME is so high, that you are basically paying for a tradesman to lean over his shoulder and watch everything he does.

Everything the apprentice does has to be checked, and only a tradesman can do that. To say you should pay less because an apprentice is working on your aircraft says to me, you are happy to accept the risks for a lower price benefit....but you won't tolerate that, and will look for someone to blame when it goes pearshaped.
If you won't pay, then the industry won't train, therefore the guys still doing the job can add a specialist tax to your bill.


This discussion really gets my goat chewing grass.

How many of you out there think that a trained LAME/AME should not be able to put 1k a week in his pocket? how many of you would accept a job with less that 1.2k a week in your pocket?
I can tell you that to put 1.2k a week in any workers pocket, will cost the business owner $68.26 per hour. He then has to add in the costs of hangar rental, insurance, unpaid regulatory compliance...........the list goes on.
The business probably needs 115 per hour to make break even.

Hang a sec...what happened to the business owners wage?

I get really chumpy here, because most of the biggest whiners about LAME costs will cheerfully pay 200 per hour for an oil change on their AMG.

as for the charter...its called a code of conduct!


my beer is broken...going in search of a new one

[Band a Lot]

Many a good LAME around here on + $100K per year for more than 5 years, many also at about $150K.

That is $50 to $75 per hour per LAME - but MOST other labour charge companies charge about 3x labour cost AND easily 100 or 300% or more parts cost mark up (ask OP his mark up on parts when he had DS).


We will never have a appy again - not worth the cost of replacement parts and the 4months off a year.

[The name is Porter]

Vitriolic? All pretty reasonable I thought.

BK, MB rent. There are a number of non towered aerodromes growing, some of them are even full. Have any of you ventured out to Tyabb? Pretty big shop there. Why pay rent at BK, MB?

All of the factors could be addressed, without vitriol.

[Stikybeke]

There used to be a LAME who frequented these pages a while ago who got banned alot......The majority of the time it was very difficult to decipher what the context of his post was about but every now and then he'd let one slip in that was not only easy to read but made perfectly good sense! I wonder if he's back under another name now...
Sticky

[Band a Lot]

I don't normally say "this is for you Sticky" but reply to a particular comment to a thread or in thread direction in general.

Also I have not made many posts in this section before, maybe a hand full under a different name. But I have posted in 2 other sections under a different name about 20-30 times in last 8 years or so.

Just to clear it up for you Sticky, I actually never knew the OP was on PPRUNE until I saw and read the $34K C208 annual and thought how can that be. It turns out it is the 4 year items that were/are due. Dick's actual 12 month/annual cost per estimate is only $7920.00 +gst (if it were not a private A/C and trying to make a profit GST is not relevant in $7920 or the $34k headline

[ChickenHouse]

I was digging through 208B numbers right now to help a friend do the foundation of a PJE operations. We figured out that the typical 1000 to 1200 hours operations per year demands for something well above 800 to 1000 USD per flight hour to generate a reasonable profit from the company, with about 300 USD variable operational costs.

If I take the 300 times 50 variable plus your 34k one shot and assuming nothing else was spent during the year, I get 980 per flight hours - no cheap, but well within a reasonable frame. It does cost a minimum 50k/y to operate a Caravan, no matter if you fly or not ;-). If I look at the estimate and get the overannual parts away, 88 hours for biannual work converts to 44/y and 112 hours for quadrupleannual converts to 28/y, I end up for singleannual at 17.6k - a common value.

So, in short - high estimate is overannual work and I would say the estimate is reasonable at all. It is your extreme low usage causing that bad feeling, but feeling aint't right here.

[jas24zzk]

Many a good LAME around here on + $100K per year for more than 5 years, many also at about $150K.

That is $50 to $75 per hour per LAME - but MOST other labour charge companies charge about 3x labour cost AND easily 100 or 300% or more parts cost mark up (ask OP his mark up on parts when he had DS).


We will never have a appy again - not worth the cost of replacement parts and the 4months off a year.

Thats a nice start point, albeit very simplified.

50-70 per hour only shows what the tradesman is paid directly, and does not come close to the indirect costs...which must be paid.

Just responding so that anyone with their head in the sand might appreciate the real costs to employ a tradesman. The number of 100k per year is a feasible start point.

So most people will automatically grab the calculator and go 100,000 / 52 /38 and tell us its $50.61. It seems feasible, but it is very very wrong.

Lets have a look a proper formula and recalculate it.


Available Chargeable Hours

Average tradesman works 37.5 hours per week
Gross working time = 52 weeks x 37.5 hours = 1,950 hrs
LESS 4 weeks annual leave = 150 hrs
LESS 2 weeks public holidays = 75 hrs
LESS 2 weeks sick leave = 75 hrs
LESS tea break 0.25hrs x 5 days x 44 weeks = 55 hrs
LESS cleaning 0.5hrs x 5 days x 44 weeks = 110 hrs
LESS setup of 0.5hrs x 5 days x 44 weeks = 110 hrs
LESS unproductive 0.25hrs x 5 days x 44 weeks = 55 hrs
TOTAL AVAILABLE CHARGEABLE HOURS = 1,320 HRS
(per year, based on averaged information gained from the industry)

A Tradesman’s Costs

Average Tradesman earning $1923.07 per week:
x 52 weeks per year = $100,000
Leave loading – 17.5% of $1,500 x 4 weeks = $1346.15
Long service leave = $1,800
Superannuation @ 9.5% = $9500
Workers Compensation @ 3% = $3000
TOTAL COST TO EMPLOY A TRADESMAN = $115.646.15
(based on averaged information gained from the industry)

Tradesman Cost Per Hour

Average tradesman works 37.5 hours per week:
Total cost of tradesman = $115.646.15
Total available hours per tradesman = 1,320 hrs
Divide Total costs by available hours:
It costs $87.61 per hour, just to cover the tradesman’s wages.

After that, add in everything else the business has to pay for (and some of thats pricey! )

-----------------
shame you aren't keen to train another apprentice. Thier mistakes can be costly. Tho I have seen a tradies drop a $4500 headlight.....

[jas24zzk]

Disclaimer. The above formula isn't mine. It is something that was published via Anon letter in Paint and Panel magazine.

I've merely moved it here and re-run the numbers for the end result.
Cheers
Jas

[Band a Lot]

Yep Shame, but that is the way it is. I have a ex appy floatin around between mine jobs at very good pay think WA,NT and QLD. I will guarantee him if any want him, he did cost me a lot of money and time, but about 6 GOOD LAME now say he is good to go.