Reduced Safety Because of Airservices ADS-B Mandate

[Dick Smith]

Recently I heard about a Cessna 210 owner getting a price to fit ADS-B to his aircraft of over $32,000.00. This would add additional cost to financing the plane of $600.00 per month, so the person has decided to put the plane back into VFR and go scud running everywhere.

If this happens of course, it’s a great example of reduced safety because of this unique Australian requirement that Airservices management have pushed on CASA and everyone else.

Remember, even with ADS-B fitted, when you fly in uncontrolled air space (most of the time for small planes), you still only get traffic information and have to self-separate yourself using radio.

[Plazbot]

Is it time to roll Dick's weekly adsb threads into one?

[Jabawocky]

Dick…..that 210 must have needed a lot of other stuff.


Folks make your mind up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6P7...ature=youtu.be

[no_one]

Dick,

Do you mind posting the quote without the personal/company details? It sounds like someone is having a huge lend of your friend.

[buckshot1777]

Remember, even with ADS-B fitted, when you fly in uncontrolled air space (most of the time for small planes), you still only get traffic information

You will get surveillance-based traffic information, unlike now if only transponder equipped and outside SSR coverage, where you only get traffic info based on pilot estimates.

Interesting how the "Current percentage of flights fitted" on the RHS of this page jumps significantly when updated every few weeks:

Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast | Airservices

[Frank Arouet]

AsA as a corporatized entity does not, (now), have the right to make regulatory mandates that would benefit the shareholders. In this case one, the Australian Government.
QANGO or not, it must have no conflict of interest. CAsA does act as a proxy to this corporation to guarantee it's monopoly and needs to be taken into check.
ASIC have a duty to investigate complaints of this sort. This cartel is illegal and needs to be tested in Court by ASIC. Someone should complain to the corporation regulator, although I can see that keeping a few more "bureaurats" in employment.
I wonder how much it would have cost to equip my Sopwith Zot?

[buckshot1777]

Traffic in costs even more money doesn't it?

I was referring to traffic information from ATC.

Going by the coverage maps, the Dubbo area does appear to have a gap in coverage. I believe there is an Airservices project involving more ADS-B sites and Dubbo looks like a candidate for a site, so try giving them a call and explain your situation:

ADS-B Hotline [phone]

[Dexta]

I have an IFR C172 and a CIR, I do not fly in serious IMC conditions but I like the additional safety of the benefits IFR gives me. I have spent, and continue to spend a fair amount of money to keep current as one should. I rarely fly over 8000' and rarely fly outside the J curve. The aircraft is fitted with a Garmin 300XL, VOR &n ADF with a Garmin 320A Transponder. To continue to fly IFR I must:
A) Hope some company brings out a box/ all in one transponder so that I can simply replace my old one and be ADS-B compliant. Cost: Black box $4000, new txpndr $4000, fitting: $2000. All in one: $8000? so 8K-10K all up.
b) Replace the 300XL with a 430W if I can get one, or a 530, plus new txpndr, cables, fitting, etc. Cost: GPS, $10K-$15K, txpndr $4K, fitting etc, $5K so $19K - $24K.
So I must spend a considerable amount of money to remain IFR for either no benefit to a very occasional benefit or drop to VFR and reduced safety.
I watch the Airservices video but I do not have a turbo prop or a turbo 182 and I do not fly to Bourke on a regular basis.
I also have a Raspberry PI ADS-B in receiver through OzRunways so I currently have ADS-B in.
So please tell me how ADS-B will improve my safety, improve my IFR experience, save me money or time or even in-convienience? Or do you think I'm wasting my time flying a Cessna 172 IFR and I should just stay home or in a hotel for a few days if it's cloudy and leave IFR to the professionals?

[no_one]

Originally Posted by Dexta

So please tell me how ADS-B will improve my safety, improve my IFR experience, save me money or time or even in-convienience? Or do you think I'm wasting my time flying a Cessna 172 IFR and I should just stay home or in a hotel for a few days if it's cloudy and leave IFR to the professionals?

I am not saying its good value for the price but.... At the moment you are invisible to other aircraft who are using the raspberry Pi and Ozrunways like you are. Because you are not broadcasting they cant receive your position. You being equipped with ABS-B will mean that your position is broadcast to them and they will able to detect you on their ipad/EFIS thereby reducing the risk that you will be involved in a mid air collision.

[Jabawocky]

Worth looking at the stats here;
Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast | Airservices


And released at AUSFLY ;
…..low cost option Enigma Avionics reveals Low-cost ADS-B System

enigma-avionics

And I believe the price will be awesome

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Dexta, the simple description, the reason d'ętre...for ADS-B. The technology burden is moved from the ANSP to the aircraft owner. Is this a bad thing? Compared to old technology radar, ADS-B trumps in with more accuracy, better coverage, more utility and better service.

Smith positively ached for the day when GA VFR would no longer need to talk
" every five minutes" to FS...he was, effectively, removing a means of a safety net to separate IFR from VFR...it wasn't for VFR that we did FPR. Sure, we got a level of safety...SAR...in return, the reason we did FPR is so FS could report traffic to IFR, other traffic could also hear each broadcast and construct a picture of the conflicts about them. Alerted see and avoid! Since that time and until this fitment mandate has put GA VFR out in the cold.

Dexta, you say you plan IFR for the additional safety benefits...and what are those benefits? Because you fly in the J curve you feel no need to fit...the argument sounds so familiar. Say you want to go BHI, once you leave the Riverland you are back in Flight Services, dirt road style FPR form of ATC. Would you rather have ATC keep on seeing you as traffic with no need to keep making position reports or just keep yakking on the radio clogging up the airwaves....now doesn't that argument sound so old?

Technology enables change, just find a transponder and a blind GPS and savor the revolution. And while your savoring, just think of what might have happened if this just all quietly evolved from Marconi separation to TAAATS/SSR with FS access to full ADS-B....viva le change!

[GTang]

Originally Posted by OZBUSDRIVER

Dexta, the simple description, the reason d'ętre...for ADS-B. The technology burden is moved from the ANSP to the aircraft owner. Is this a bad thing? Compared to old technology radar, ADS-B trumps in with more accuracy, better coverage, more utility and better service.

The cost burden being moved to the aircraft owner is pretty bad a thing.

Are the cost savings from scrapping ground aids really going to be passed on back to the user, or just into pockets of a few?

[Jabawocky]

More the point ….would the costs associated with keeping all the NDB/VOR's be born by Dexta and all those who want to hang on to the old days. I certainly do not want to pay for them.

I dare say the cost of going backwards would scare the naysayers into going forwards, just in terms of nav equipment alone.

[CHAIRMAN]

Question for you Jabba - is all the stuff in your a/c TSO'd?
Dextas has to be. I have the same stuff as him/her in my Archer. Texta is right on the money cost wise.
And as for 'smarter' options, check out the latest list of ápproved' installations.
No doubt cheaper stuff will eventuate, but because of the Aussie quango penchant for being first out of the box, we will probably have to drop back to VFR until that stuff becomes affordable compared to the value of the airframes.
The yanks are talking about portable stuff being approved before their 2021 deadline.

[CHAIRMAN]

Had a quick look at the Enigma thingie - great stuff, but not TSO'd and therefore not useable for GA IFR. Also VFR. No help to Dexta or me to continue to operate our a/c IFR.
Until the regs get changed to dump the TSO requirement for GA lighties there will be a big pushback on ADSB compliance in the short term.
I looked at L3 as having a reasonably affordable solution for me, but as yet the system is only suitable for the US dual band system, they've not yet decided to adapt the product for our unique market.
This whole deal is designed to reduce costs for the regulators and the majors - light GA either has to foot the bill or temporarily get out - we're not part of the equation, and not considered.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Jaba-

would the costs associated with keeping all the NDB/VOR's be born by Dexta and all those who want to hang on to the old days. I certainly do not want to pay for them.

So true!....and another old argument right back at the naysayers

CTR, a little concerned that you are outside the envelope 150 nautical from SY. That doesn't agree with the published charts.

[Jabawocky]

Chairperson

You should know the answer to this…...

Question for you Jabba - is all the stuff in your a/c TSO'd?

In relation to the surveillance and nag gear….
Yes

Garmin GTN 750 and Trig txpdr.

The Enigma gear will be approved for dexta shortly….and check the specs page enigma-avionics

I may have sat in on meetings with ASA/CASA/other industry folk where this device has been discussed, and may have knowledge that I am not at liberty to discuss, so rather than blab, I would suggest people interested contact them by email.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

It is also worth noting. AirServices has a QandA that also lists transponders and compliant gps sources.

Would I be correct in saying that it is only the gps source for ADS-B that must be TSO c145/146? c129 is still good for navigation?

Edit...never mind CAAP 179a covers it

[le Pingouin]

CTR, a little concerned that you are outside the envelope 150 nautical from SY. That doesn't agree with the published charts.

At altitudes I wouldn't be surprised - the ADS-B sites in the Sydney basin would be shielded by terrain and he wouldn't in range of Bourke.

Putting ADS-B in at Dubbo would a fine thing.

[Dexta]

Thanks for all the info, Hopefully that Enigma will be TSO'd by 2017 and not too unreasonable in price.
I do like the idea of ADS-B, what I don't like is essentially being forced to pay for something that, at this current time, will provide almost zero benefit - I'm sure in time more ADS-B receivers will be installed and ATC will be able to identify me in areas that they currently cannot.
Re: the costs of keeping/not keeping the NDB's/VOR's etc. not going forward etc. has nothing to do with the ADS-B argument, how I navigate and how I'm identified are two different things. If I fit an Enigma, I will still be navigating using my TSO129 GPS with the odd NDB or VOR for backup.
I do think ADS-B at some point should be mandatory, BUT, not until at least 2020, not below 10,000' (unless EVERYONE has it, i.e. VFR (including experimental, RA-Aus, gliders, balloons, UAV's etc.) & IFR) and at a cost (either subsidised or with appropriate specifications) no more than $5,000 per installation.
Look, I can see the benefits of ADS-B, providing that at least 95% of airspace above 5000' is covered ( I'm sure it will get there but not For a while) and that it covers all aircraft. I know, see & avoid and all that, but safety would be greatly increased if i saw a blip on the iPad from a VFR tecnam 5 miles away heading straight for me well before I spotted them visually.
If ADS-B was not mandatory below 10,000' then it would be as it is now, maybe not as safe, maybe less convenient, but I could put the money into something that might improve safety (PCAS, TCAS, trained eagle to spot traffic....)