A new paint job and this Piper Navajo is up for hire and reward
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interesting...
I have never met Centarus, but he is far from anonymous, he has published a book, under his own name (quite a good read) and the most basic of interwebbing skills will reveal that.
I think what a lot of people are missing is, he didn't say he wrote that up, he copied it from an old BASI journal. In fact, I recall reading that article many years ago! I think there was a forward by the author of the report in the journal about having an hour with nothing to do, so he wanted to look at what he could find.
Interesting that International Trader jumped right on the offensive...
Oh, and as long as I'm here, $1500/hr for a Navajo??!?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Gold!
I have never met Centarus, but he is far from anonymous, he has published a book, under his own name (quite a good read) and the most basic of interwebbing skills will reveal that.
I think what a lot of people are missing is, he didn't say he wrote that up, he copied it from an old BASI journal. In fact, I recall reading that article many years ago! I think there was a forward by the author of the report in the journal about having an hour with nothing to do, so he wanted to look at what he could find.
Interesting that International Trader jumped right on the offensive...
Oh, and as long as I'm here, $1500/hr for a Navajo??!?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Gold!
Welcome to GA where many planes are 40+ years old. They may get maintenance but in terms of real upgrades 99% are still flying ancient avionics and equipment.
Many of these planes had an anticipated life in commercial operations of 20 years maximum
Many of these planes had an anticipated life in commercial operations of 20 years maximum
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Oh, and as long as I'm here, $1500/hr for a Navajo??!?
The above is a genuine question. I have no idea on what it costs to run a Navajo.
I am also assuming that a Chieftain would be slightly more expensive again!
Laardvark, no not you, though that being said I wasn't quite sure how to take your post - I suspect some may have taken your reference to colourful names the wrong way, but no I was referring to someone else's post/s.
Moderator
As for the regulator allowing this sort of stuff to occur, they are too busy pole vaulting over mouse **** to worry about the real issues.
Do you claim copyright on that ? .. or can any of us relish it and reflect upon it from time to time ? Will keep me in fine humour for the rest of the evening ...
you may well stand to the defence of your good friend centaurus, john but all international trader has done is ask some questions.
.. not having a go at IT, per se .. he is entitled to whatever views he holds and so forth ... however, Centaurus is far too much the gentleman to engage in a biff so I felt obliged to move to his defence.
We all acknowledge that the problem exists .. however, surely the concern is how it may be fixed.
Certainly the first thing is to move to fair pricing so that the operator might make a sensible profit compatible with other Industries. The Micawber Principle certainly applies ..
On the other hand, the problem persists because it is tolerated for a whole raft of reasons.
Do you claim copyright on that ? .. or can any of us relish it and reflect upon it from time to time ? Will keep me in fine humour for the rest of the evening ...
you may well stand to the defence of your good friend centaurus, john but all international trader has done is ask some questions.
.. not having a go at IT, per se .. he is entitled to whatever views he holds and so forth ... however, Centaurus is far too much the gentleman to engage in a biff so I felt obliged to move to his defence.
We all acknowledge that the problem exists .. however, surely the concern is how it may be fixed.
Certainly the first thing is to move to fair pricing so that the operator might make a sensible profit compatible with other Industries. The Micawber Principle certainly applies ..
On the other hand, the problem persists because it is tolerated for a whole raft of reasons.
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[quote[ On the other hand, the problem persists because it is tolerated for a whole raft of reasons.
[quote/]
Scene at Essendon for example. Young pilot desperate for hours has a casual job flying a 172 on morning and evening rush hour traffic surveillance. The aircraft cockpit stinks of petrol and petrol stains running down under the wings from leaking fuel drains. Been like that for ages.
Warned that a spark from (for example) the flap motor, or electrical equipment in the cockpit, could ignite petrol fumes, let alone a flash of flame from the engine exhaust on engine start, said pilot agreed there was a severe fuel leak problem but was prepared to close his eyes and take the 172 as he said there was no shortage of other pilots waiting for his job should he write up the snag and lose his job.
[quote/]Scene at Essendon for example. Young pilot desperate for hours has a casual job flying a 172 on morning and evening rush hour traffic surveillance. The aircraft cockpit stinks of petrol and petrol stains running down under the wings from leaking fuel drains. Been like that for ages.
Warned that a spark from (for example) the flap motor, or electrical equipment in the cockpit, could ignite petrol fumes, let alone a flash of flame from the engine exhaust on engine start, said pilot agreed there was a severe fuel leak problem but was prepared to close his eyes and take the 172 as he said there was no shortage of other pilots waiting for his job should he write up the snag and lose his job.
Thread Starter
he didn't say he wrote that up, he copied it from an old BASI journal
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...1/jan/atsb.pdf
Later I believe an edited version was used by BASIS in their flight safety journal.
Unfortunately, I wasn't shocked when I read this. The example was a bit much for one aircraft but these things could be encountered with multiple examples.
I went SCUBA diving yesterday with rental gear, after 20 minutes I noticed my tank pressure hadn't decreased at all so I gave the gauge a solid tap and it instantly went from 210 bar to 160 bar.
Obviously my time in GA sharpened my survival skills.
I went SCUBA diving yesterday with rental gear, after 20 minutes I noticed my tank pressure hadn't decreased at all so I gave the gauge a solid tap and it instantly went from 210 bar to 160 bar.
Obviously my time in GA sharpened my survival skills.
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My post was designed to:
1: Find out if the author had a realistic view of the state of general aviation.
2: Agree that most GA aircraft are below standard.
3: Suggest that the situation will never completely reverse.
3: Point out that in order to keep a cheaply built aircraft to 100% operational state of readiness costs $$, big $$$ and, experienced pilots to help keep them that way.
4. Have a bit of fun.
As the discussion was about higher performance GA aircraft , I take it that a view from the professional GA pilot , ex GA or 'would be' was in order.
The point about the bare Instructor to A380 was to suggest that someone who was in GA for a brief time and just out of flight school aircraft ( probably the better standard of aircraft due to the balance of age/regular flight hours/maintenance regularity/productivity),who had now progressed through many years in an airline environment to a new airliner, would be quite out of touch with the condition of many GA aircraft and the state of GA.
I thought about including the alternative of a military pilot but, decided the post was already too long( this will be longer).
That military pilot, moving to GA aircraft,would be in the same boat.
Wouldn't it be wonderful ( aviation nirvana in fact) if all you had to do is write up the maintenance release and walk back to the crew room, hotel or Officer's quarters until your plane was fixed.
I am sure that your passengers ( or friends) would just wait around , your employer would still pay you ( god forbid on time), you actually got a pension in the first place, protection from a union, somebody would still provide you a uniform and other benefits.
Wouldn't it be lovely world to be able to walk into aviation from school, be trained for free, fed, clothed, housed ,paid to fly and have the assurance of a career until you retire or change your job by choice.
Boy, could you really do some good work with that atmosphere.
It would also be great to be able to not have to take jobs at night to pay the rent and food bill, not to have to sleep in your car so that you can follow your dream/ chosen career during the day.
I recall times when my whole salary went for rent... no $ for food those times or, a time when my cash surplus was $7 per week( maybe $30 today?).
Yeah, I was a lucky one.
Did I speak up, many times but, I flew aircraft that I accepted were safe to fly ( at times considering my experience ) but, not perfect.
I walked away from some and some I just didn't know how bad they were.
Still, I did fly some heaps of Sh1t but, I have been also presented some dodgy airline aircraft.
By the way, I lost income ( present and some future) from the aircraft that I walked away from but, I admit that I am also still alive to tell about it.
I held my hand up and paid for the privilege .
Some ( minor)problems, I just fixed myself so that the operation would continue, people were paid and passengers got what they paid for.
Did anything I that I did fix the GA problem or change the world... nope.
I remember a guy who had a small flying school and when he had to do a night flight and the preflight uncovered a blown nav light, he regularly cancelled the flight.
Instead of checking the aircraft earlier in the day time ( engineer available) or changing the globe himself ( as a last resort), he cancelled the flights .
He never flew a un-airworthy aircraft and, his school went broke .
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all sorry about the way I gained my experience and the best pilots that I know of have all come from such a background ( they just probably started with better raw material than I did).
It is a tough process but, those that come through the other end are very good.
Long ago, I decided that the only way forward was to get into a safer area of aviation or get out.
Fortunately (?) for me, the first option presented itself before the second became a necessity.
Most people who have GA aircraft and definitely those who rent them out , cannot afford to own aircraft.
They rent them out to be able to have them ( for as long as the game lasts)
They are people who are having a go, right or wrong but, if they didn't exist, there would be very few aircraft in Australia , rented out a significantly higher rates.
These are as much a dreamer as are most of those who rent their aircraft to fly.
People who rent aircraft complain that they are expensive and not up to standard.
People who own ( and rent out ) aircraft complain that pilots want cheap prices and break things because of poor skills /knowledge/ currency.
To those who were laughing at my $1500 ( and even Centaurus although you didn't make comment about costs), consider what it would cost the military or an airline to maintain such an old aircraft in near perfect operational state that you would like ( and the Military don't have to pay for them in the first place ) .
Obviously, a professional operation would retire aircraft that are beyond their economic operational life but, if they were to operate such and aircraft, they would want a fair return for the effort.
That price is probably what one should charge to support an old aircraft in the state that would give Centaurus little or nothing to write up.
Accordingly, to help keep the aircraft in good condition that same operator would require a properly trained, current pilot ( hence the other requirements), more costs.
No, I don't have an Navajo for rent.
At that price, of course, Centaurus would probably not be there in a position to consider flying the aircraft because the price would appear unrealistic to the extreme.
I think that there is a book and movie on such a topic?
We then are back to the dog with a new coat of paint .
QED.
My style of posting maybe unusual to some or all and can be viewed as abrasive or complete tosh.
They are intended to be humorous ( if I can ) , promote discussion , abuse( return abuse that is), occasionally pass on the benefit of my experience and, yes be abrasive but, they are my honest opinions at the time and beyond all else, they are entertaining to me.
Don't like 'em, don't read 'em.
Want to have a go at me, go ahead, I will read your post at some point.
John, I am surprised by your comments and failure to read between the lines. I know you to be a very intelligent person with a good grasp of the GA situation.
I hate the idea of these 'smiles' but, I just love this one with the teeth !
I don't know what it is supposed to mean, I just get a laugh whenever I see it!
1: Find out if the author had a realistic view of the state of general aviation.
2: Agree that most GA aircraft are below standard.
3: Suggest that the situation will never completely reverse.
3: Point out that in order to keep a cheaply built aircraft to 100% operational state of readiness costs $$, big $$$ and, experienced pilots to help keep them that way.
4. Have a bit of fun.
As the discussion was about higher performance GA aircraft , I take it that a view from the professional GA pilot , ex GA or 'would be' was in order.
The point about the bare Instructor to A380 was to suggest that someone who was in GA for a brief time and just out of flight school aircraft ( probably the better standard of aircraft due to the balance of age/regular flight hours/maintenance regularity/productivity),who had now progressed through many years in an airline environment to a new airliner, would be quite out of touch with the condition of many GA aircraft and the state of GA.
I thought about including the alternative of a military pilot but, decided the post was already too long( this will be longer).
That military pilot, moving to GA aircraft,would be in the same boat.
Wouldn't it be wonderful ( aviation nirvana in fact) if all you had to do is write up the maintenance release and walk back to the crew room, hotel or Officer's quarters until your plane was fixed.
I am sure that your passengers ( or friends) would just wait around , your employer would still pay you ( god forbid on time), you actually got a pension in the first place, protection from a union, somebody would still provide you a uniform and other benefits.
Wouldn't it be lovely world to be able to walk into aviation from school, be trained for free, fed, clothed, housed ,paid to fly and have the assurance of a career until you retire or change your job by choice.
Boy, could you really do some good work with that atmosphere.
It would also be great to be able to not have to take jobs at night to pay the rent and food bill, not to have to sleep in your car so that you can follow your dream/ chosen career during the day.
I recall times when my whole salary went for rent... no $ for food those times or, a time when my cash surplus was $7 per week( maybe $30 today?).
Yeah, I was a lucky one.
Did I speak up, many times but, I flew aircraft that I accepted were safe to fly ( at times considering my experience ) but, not perfect.
I walked away from some and some I just didn't know how bad they were.
Still, I did fly some heaps of Sh1t but, I have been also presented some dodgy airline aircraft.
By the way, I lost income ( present and some future) from the aircraft that I walked away from but, I admit that I am also still alive to tell about it.
I held my hand up and paid for the privilege .
Some ( minor)problems, I just fixed myself so that the operation would continue, people were paid and passengers got what they paid for.
Did anything I that I did fix the GA problem or change the world... nope.
I remember a guy who had a small flying school and when he had to do a night flight and the preflight uncovered a blown nav light, he regularly cancelled the flight.
Instead of checking the aircraft earlier in the day time ( engineer available) or changing the globe himself ( as a last resort), he cancelled the flights .
He never flew a un-airworthy aircraft and, his school went broke .
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all sorry about the way I gained my experience and the best pilots that I know of have all come from such a background ( they just probably started with better raw material than I did).
It is a tough process but, those that come through the other end are very good.
Long ago, I decided that the only way forward was to get into a safer area of aviation or get out.
Fortunately (?) for me, the first option presented itself before the second became a necessity.
Most people who have GA aircraft and definitely those who rent them out , cannot afford to own aircraft.
They rent them out to be able to have them ( for as long as the game lasts)
They are people who are having a go, right or wrong but, if they didn't exist, there would be very few aircraft in Australia , rented out a significantly higher rates.
These are as much a dreamer as are most of those who rent their aircraft to fly.
People who rent aircraft complain that they are expensive and not up to standard.
People who own ( and rent out ) aircraft complain that pilots want cheap prices and break things because of poor skills /knowledge/ currency.
To those who were laughing at my $1500 ( and even Centaurus although you didn't make comment about costs), consider what it would cost the military or an airline to maintain such an old aircraft in near perfect operational state that you would like ( and the Military don't have to pay for them in the first place ) .
Obviously, a professional operation would retire aircraft that are beyond their economic operational life but, if they were to operate such and aircraft, they would want a fair return for the effort.
That price is probably what one should charge to support an old aircraft in the state that would give Centaurus little or nothing to write up.
Accordingly, to help keep the aircraft in good condition that same operator would require a properly trained, current pilot ( hence the other requirements), more costs.
No, I don't have an Navajo for rent.
At that price, of course, Centaurus would probably not be there in a position to consider flying the aircraft because the price would appear unrealistic to the extreme.
I think that there is a book and movie on such a topic?
We then are back to the dog with a new coat of paint .
QED.
My style of posting maybe unusual to some or all and can be viewed as abrasive or complete tosh.
They are intended to be humorous ( if I can ) , promote discussion , abuse( return abuse that is), occasionally pass on the benefit of my experience and, yes be abrasive but, they are my honest opinions at the time and beyond all else, they are entertaining to me.
Don't like 'em, don't read 'em.
Want to have a go at me, go ahead, I will read your post at some point.
John, I am surprised by your comments and failure to read between the lines. I know you to be a very intelligent person with a good grasp of the GA situation.
I hate the idea of these 'smiles' but, I just love this one with the teeth !
I don't know what it is supposed to mean, I just get a laugh whenever I see it!
Last edited by International Trader; 26th Jun 2015 at 00:44. Reason: Typo...again.
I know of two companies that charged $1500 / hour for a Chieftain charter.
One was ten years + ago when the economy could support their pricing policy, ie thats what we believe we should charge for a commercial return
The other more recently ( same pricing policy ), the economy couldn't support the price so it did nothing and was sold
One was ten years + ago when the economy could support their pricing policy, ie thats what we believe we should charge for a commercial return
The other more recently ( same pricing policy ), the economy couldn't support the price so it did nothing and was sold
Thread Starter
My post was designed to:
1: Find out if the author had a realistic view of the state of general aviation.
1: Find out if the author had a realistic view of the state of general aviation.
For every one responder like you, me and others who have the willingness to put pen to paper in Pprune, there are probably well over 200 others that are content to read the posts and perhaps learn a little from their content.
18 years RAAF, 13 in overseas airlines, 7 in DCA and 24 in general aviation. Most would agree that qualifies as having a realistic view of general aviation in Australia. I'll leave it at that
Last edited by Centaurus; 26th Jun 2015 at 03:04.
The Piper Navajo and Aztec the subject of the CAIR reports quoted by Centaurus go into maintenance with the instruction: "Restore these aircraft to compliance with the applicable TCDS (including, of course, applicable STCs and ADs)."
Do those aircraft come out of maintenance more airworthy, or less airworthy, than when they went in?
Please cite data to support your answer.
Do those aircraft come out of maintenance more airworthy, or less airworthy, than when they went in?
Please cite data to support your answer.
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The above is a genuine question. I have no idea on what it costs to run a Navajo.
I am also assuming that a Chieftain would be slightly more expensive again!
I am also assuming that a Chieftain would be slightly more expensive again!
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
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under those instructions those aircraft would probably be scrapped
Someone with more knowlege than I on the subject could probably supply a definitive answer, but given the defects listed in both those cases, my suspicion is that to make each aircraft properly airworthy would take far more money than the aircraft was worth!!
Thank you PhillC
Some might ask if there is such a thing as a "decent Chieftain"