Your leg or simply your take off?
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: los angeles
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
POPGUN,
Just for your info, ; Captain Bligh was a hell of a captain, a great mariner and an accomplished navigator, just look him up......
Fletcher christian was nothing but a mutineer.
Just for your info, ; Captain Bligh was a hell of a captain, a great mariner and an accomplished navigator, just look him up......
Fletcher christian was nothing but a mutineer.
From some of the posts here it seems that some F/O's are of the opinion that when they are the handling pilot on a sector that they are in command.
Bligh was indeed a great seaman. His biggest mistake was allowing Fletcher Christian aboard in the first place, knowing that he could navigate.
The tough old seadogs of the day often could only maintain control because their sailors knew that they would be lost without the Captain.
CRM was dispensed via the cat o' nine tails. Bloody pussy first mates these days expect equal standard of meals, hotels etc and to cap it all expect us to let them fiddle with the helm.
The tough old seadogs of the day often could only maintain control because their sailors knew that they would be lost without the Captain.
CRM was dispensed via the cat o' nine tails. Bloody pussy first mates these days expect equal standard of meals, hotels etc and to cap it all expect us to let them fiddle with the helm.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd suggest that todays automated cockpit requires a little less decision making enroute than the OPs DC3 of yore. WX deviations aside, how much 'hands on' or 'decision making' is actually required, other than 'I wonder what the wind is like at 370?'. 'Your aeroplane' means what, exactly? Time in the logbook.
Moderator
this flying story in Air Facts Journal
The story brings a tear to my eye each time I have read it. Well done, sir.
Time in the logbook.
My DC3 time was limited to a not-quite-completed endorsement during parachute ops with a well-known (now) very senior greybeard so I can really only comment on the "easier" airline stuff.
Admittedly, most of the time the routine was just that.
On the odd occasion, though, either two (or three, as the crew complement dictated) of us were on the edge of our seats. Probably not all that much different to the two in the three ?
Could it be that the olden times were not all that much different, in principle, albeit at lower heights ?
I consider myself fortunate that the first operator for which I flew had captains (in the very great majority) who quasi-delegated the show with the leg (with one eye kept very much awake to make sure I didn't screw up too much .. in which case I would be corrected and put back onto the straight and narrow quite politely).
Great for a young chap's training development and all round good fun .. barring the aforementioned seat edge sitting episodes ..
There was never any question or confusion as to who was in charge, though ..
Bloody pussy first mates these days expect equal standard of meals, hotels etc and to cap it all expect us to let them fiddle with the helm
... love it. You've been spending too much time on the boat, good sir ..
The story brings a tear to my eye each time I have read it. Well done, sir.
Time in the logbook.
My DC3 time was limited to a not-quite-completed endorsement during parachute ops with a well-known (now) very senior greybeard so I can really only comment on the "easier" airline stuff.
Admittedly, most of the time the routine was just that.
On the odd occasion, though, either two (or three, as the crew complement dictated) of us were on the edge of our seats. Probably not all that much different to the two in the three ?
Could it be that the olden times were not all that much different, in principle, albeit at lower heights ?
I consider myself fortunate that the first operator for which I flew had captains (in the very great majority) who quasi-delegated the show with the leg (with one eye kept very much awake to make sure I didn't screw up too much .. in which case I would be corrected and put back onto the straight and narrow quite politely).
Great for a young chap's training development and all round good fun .. barring the aforementioned seat edge sitting episodes ..
There was never any question or confusion as to who was in charge, though ..
Bloody pussy first mates these days expect equal standard of meals, hotels etc and to cap it all expect us to let them fiddle with the helm
... love it. You've been spending too much time on the boat, good sir ..
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Posts: 1,994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I'm aware, the CAR 224 still requires ONE person to be designated as "Pilot In Command", and said PIC shall be responsible for;
(a) the start, continuation, diversion and end of a flight by the aircraft; and
(b) the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time; and
(c) the safety of persons and cargo carried on the aircraft; and
(d) the conduct and safety of members of the crew on the aircraft.
also;
(3) The pilot in command shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while he or she is in command and for the maintenance of discipline by all persons on board.
That's why the Captain is the Captain, and why the F/O can take it or leave it..
(a) the start, continuation, diversion and end of a flight by the aircraft; and
(b) the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time; and
(c) the safety of persons and cargo carried on the aircraft; and
(d) the conduct and safety of members of the crew on the aircraft.
also;
(3) The pilot in command shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while he or she is in command and for the maintenance of discipline by all persons on board.
That's why the Captain is the Captain, and why the F/O can take it or leave it..
In general I've never thanked a captain for doing a sector
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yet I am sure you would thank the FA for bringing you a cup of coffee on the flight deck. What's the difference in principle?
If the Captain shares leg-for-leg with me, we are exchanging PM & PF roles at the stated expectation of the company. Whichever role is undertaken, no extra work is involved for the Captain (although it might be a different kind of work), and no less work is involved for me. I am neither grateful nor ungrateful; it's just another part of the job.
Of course, if the Captain sees fit to offer >50% of the flying, or perhaps a more challenging & interesting leg, I thank him for his kindness. Just like the coffee thing.
Thanks for posting the link - it's a great story. I particularly liked the students standing up in class for the instructor; there were one or two older instructors who I thought deserved this gesture at my flying school, but of course they did not get it from the classes!
Last edited by Oktas8; 27th Apr 2015 at 11:44.
A very experienced Captn once told me - a cockpit is not a committee room. There is one, and one only, PIC. He / she may use whatever resources are available to them but at the end of the day, there is only one name on the paperwork, and only one person on the stand in the coroner's court if it all turns to ****.
A prime example - we all know who the Captn was but how many of us know the name of the first officer of the pelair flight at Norfolk Island and who apparently flew the first approach before the Captn took over? I certainly don't (and please don't name & shame - this example is to support my point of view).
It seems to me if the Captn assists in improving yr skills by encouraging you to fly a leg with the benefit of his / her experience in the left hand seat, (and him / her to carry the can if it all goes wrong) it seems to me that saying thank you is a very small thing to do.
Octas8 - if you believed the instructor to be worthy of the small sign of respect of standing when he/she entered the room, then why didn't you?
A prime example - we all know who the Captn was but how many of us know the name of the first officer of the pelair flight at Norfolk Island and who apparently flew the first approach before the Captn took over? I certainly don't (and please don't name & shame - this example is to support my point of view).
It seems to me if the Captn assists in improving yr skills by encouraging you to fly a leg with the benefit of his / her experience in the left hand seat, (and him / her to carry the can if it all goes wrong) it seems to me that saying thank you is a very small thing to do.
Octas8 - if you believed the instructor to be worthy of the small sign of respect of standing when he/she entered the room, then why didn't you?
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A prime example - we all know who the Captn was but how many of us know the name of the first officer of the pelair flight at Norfolk Island and who apparently flew the first approach before the Captn took over? I certainly don't (and please don't name & shame - this example is to support my point of view).
There is no “Leg” or “Take Off” or “Landing” time or number Column or Sub-Column in the prescribed form of log book. Therefore, if you were to make your own Column or Sub-Column and record the time flying a ‘leg’ or the number of ‘takes offs’ or ‘landings’ you were ‘given’, you would break the law.
It necessarily follows that being ‘given’ a ‘leg’ or a ‘take-off’ or a ‘landing’ would be a risk to the safety of air navigation.
Shame on you people. Do you have CVD?
It necessarily follows that being ‘given’ a ‘leg’ or a ‘take-off’ or a ‘landing’ would be a risk to the safety of air navigation.
Shame on you people. Do you have CVD?
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no “Leg” or “Take Off” or “Landing” time or number Column or Sub-Column in the prescribed form of log book. Therefore, if you were to make your own Column or Sub-Column and record the time flying a ‘leg’ or the number of ‘takes offs’ or ‘landings’ you were ‘given’, you would break the law.
Route/Remarks/Details Record all points of take-off and landing, nature of the flight (eg, mustering, aerobatics, scenic, etc) and, if required for recency, the number of landings.
Ocktas8: I am guessing here but I suspect you may be the "better" side of 45 - if not then I apologise.
CRM has many uses but it can also stand for Courtesy,Respect and Manners!
Perhaps this is just a generational thing but the above seems to be increasingly absent.
CRM has many uses but it can also stand for Courtesy,Respect and Manners!
Perhaps this is just a generational thing but the above seems to be increasingly absent.
