GBAS at YMML
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GBAS at YMML
Was just at the World ATM Conference, Honeywell said a SmartPath system had been purchased and was being installed at the airport.
Anyone hear or know anything about this?
Anyone hear or know anything about this?
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Thanks. A few years back, I had designed RNP-AR to GBAS final approach procedures for YMML. Never knew what happened with them.
There were also a few quasi displaced thresholds by varying the glideslope and TCH.
Guys at Honeywell sure were interested in them...
Thanks
BTW, the wake array and wind profiler on RW16 are working beautifully...
There were also a few quasi displaced thresholds by varying the glideslope and TCH.
Guys at Honeywell sure were interested in them...
Thanks
BTW, the wake array and wind profiler on RW16 are working beautifully...
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Agree, sorry about that, its the linking issue...
At RW16, at 1000m from threshold. AC are at about 55m...
wake array, showing arrival wake vortex bouncing. .wake rebounds to almost 80m (middle of the night, very calm conditions, think of 2min spacing here)
wind profiler showing winds to 300m
note change in direction and wind speed at altitudes... there are some interesting measurements where the winds got from headwind on the ground, to tailwind aloft, and vice versa...
At RW16, at 1000m from threshold. AC are at about 55m...
wake array, showing arrival wake vortex bouncing. .wake rebounds to almost 80m (middle of the night, very calm conditions, think of 2min spacing here)
wind profiler showing winds to 300m
note change in direction and wind speed at altitudes... there are some interesting measurements where the winds got from headwind on the ground, to tailwind aloft, and vice versa...
Last edited by underfire; 28th Mar 2015 at 23:45.
BTW, the wake array and wind profiler on RW16 are working beautifully...
Is there something on the web about it?
27/09,
No doubt someone will correct if I am wrong.....however, I believe that B737-7/8/900 are fitted as standard from the Boeing factory. All other models available as a retrofit. Not sure about Airbus, I think it also might be a retrofit.
The advantage is that you can service multiple runways on one installation. Good example is Sydney. Currently the proposal for Melbourne will introduce GBAS precision approaches onto 2 runways that have never had precision approach.
At the moment current fleet capability is not great, but is expected to improve so we will just have to wait and see.
One other advantage is that you can apparently do curved approach paths, but I am not aware of any as yet.
Alpha
No doubt someone will correct if I am wrong.....however, I believe that B737-7/8/900 are fitted as standard from the Boeing factory. All other models available as a retrofit. Not sure about Airbus, I think it also might be a retrofit.
The advantage is that you can service multiple runways on one installation. Good example is Sydney. Currently the proposal for Melbourne will introduce GBAS precision approaches onto 2 runways that have never had precision approach.
At the moment current fleet capability is not great, but is expected to improve so we will just have to wait and see.
One other advantage is that you can apparently do curved approach paths, but I am not aware of any as yet.
Alpha
Alpha - nothing is "standard" GLS and everything else on the aeroplane are options.
In many cases the airline provides them to boeing as "BFE" buyer furnished equipment..
In many cases the airline provides them to boeing as "BFE" buyer furnished equipment..
27/09
Emirates A380's can do GLS approaches to Sydney.
They are auto land approved.
As Alpha says - one installation can service multiple runways or even multiple airports.
Much cheaper for the airport to install I should imagine, than installing glide path and localaliser transmitters.
Who exactly can actually use the GBAS system?
They are auto land approved.
As Alpha says - one installation can service multiple runways or even multiple airports.
Much cheaper for the airport to install I should imagine, than installing glide path and localaliser transmitters.
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Cpt Midnight,
We have really put too much up on the web yet...what you see there is a variation of prototypes for validation. The plane spotters across the road are always quite interested.
Soon we will have the validation finished, and really be able to speak more about it.
It really does show the wind shears very nicely at that location.
Alpha,
Currently, from what I understand, GLS is standard on A380, B787, B747-8, and new 777. It is a no cost add for new 737 and A320 aircraft.
It will be nice to have guidance on 27 and 34 after all this time.
Still wondering about the new runway though, parallel to 09/27?!?! Almost always a good crosswind...and a pain back to terminal.
Rex,
It can supply data for 26 runways ends at an airport, but not several airports. The 26 capability is for both ARR and DEP. The system is about $2M installed, so it is break even at 4 runway ILS systems. Long term maintenence is minimal with GBAS, unlike ILS.
The preceding aircraft does not disrupt a beam for the trail aircraft, as it is a signal that contains the data, there are no multipath or reflective issues as with ILS.
You can have simultaneous ARR and DEP from same runway end.
We have really put too much up on the web yet...what you see there is a variation of prototypes for validation. The plane spotters across the road are always quite interested.
Soon we will have the validation finished, and really be able to speak more about it.
It really does show the wind shears very nicely at that location.
Alpha,
Currently, from what I understand, GLS is standard on A380, B787, B747-8, and new 777. It is a no cost add for new 737 and A320 aircraft.
It will be nice to have guidance on 27 and 34 after all this time.
Still wondering about the new runway though, parallel to 09/27?!?! Almost always a good crosswind...and a pain back to terminal.
Rex,
It can supply data for 26 runways ends at an airport, but not several airports. The 26 capability is for both ARR and DEP. The system is about $2M installed, so it is break even at 4 runway ILS systems. Long term maintenence is minimal with GBAS, unlike ILS.
The preceding aircraft does not disrupt a beam for the trail aircraft, as it is a signal that contains the data, there are no multipath or reflective issues as with ILS.
You can have simultaneous ARR and DEP from same runway end.
alphacentauri: The advantage is that you can service multiple runways on one installation. Good example is Sydney. Currently the proposal for Melbourne will introduce GBAS precision approaches onto 2 runways that have never had precision approach.
At the moment current fleet capability is not great, but is expected to improve so we will just have to wait and see.
One other advantage is that you can apparently do curved approach paths, but I am not aware of any as yet.
At the moment current fleet capability is not great, but is expected to improve so we will just have to wait and see.
One other advantage is that you can apparently do curved approach paths, but I am not aware of any as yet.
I'm at a loss as to why SBAS hasn't been adopted in Australasia yet. Pretty well everywhere else in the civilised world has SBAS or is in the process of introducing SBAS.
With SBAS the fleet capability is very good already and both Boeing and Airbus offer it as an option.
SBAS serves multiple runways and even better serves multiple multiple airports.
While the installation costs are higher for SBAS than for an individual GBAS system, SBAS would serve the whole country making the cost per airport much cheaper. I'm standing back and waiting for someone to repeat the fallacy about the excessively high costs of installing SBAS. It doesn't cost any where near what some people claim.
You can have LPV approaches at any airport you wish with no ground based equipment.
I don't think GBAS or SBAS for that matter are required for curved approaches, we have those now without either GBAS or SBAS. However SBAS certainly opens up curved approaches to a wider audience than is currently the case.
I'm at a loss as to why SBAS hasn't been adopted in Australasia yet. Pretty well everywhere else in the civilised world has SBAS or is in the process of introducing SBAS.
In recent times, driven mainly by the aviation sector, arguments have been made to the Dept of Transport and infrastructure...and they have started to listen. AMSA are on board, and the Kiwis are very interested as they can't fund it on their own either...so there is a will, and there is a closing window of opportunity to get an SBAS receiver on a satellite.......but it is closing rapidly and the cost is increasing.
What I think is the nail in the coffin is that I hear a rumour that Thales recently hosted an 'SBAS for Australia' information session and invited all interested parties to view the proposal. By all accounts the proposal was quite good....I hear Mr Mrdak was invited......good that he couldn't even be bothered to show up. If the Dept Secretary can't be bothered to show up, guess how much interest the gov't have in implementing SBAS?
Personally, I doubt SBAS will be happening anytime soon
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GLS/GBAS and RNP are the future of NAV.
GLS is equipped as STANDARD on all B787s and all B747-8s. It is available or planned on all other current production Boeings. Many B737NG have been delivered with GLS. Airbus has GLS available on models as well. RNP is basic on all current production Boeings (and Airbusses).
1) GLS/GBAS is vastly better than, more accurate than, and less vulnerable than ILS, and far less expensive. One GLS can cover all runways even at places like KORD or KLAX)
2) GLS can be sited without the very difficult critical areas or site restrictions common to ILS.
3) GLS has virtually no multipath effects or interference (whereas ILS often NOTAMs itself out of service with a simple snowfall disturbing the G/S beam shaping surface.
4) GLS needs virtually no repetitive costly and time consuming flight inspection after it is commissioned compared to ILS.
5) GLS is steady as a rock and straight as an arrow, compared to the scalloping of raggedy ILS beams, making for improved autoflight response.
6) GLS/GBAS when combined with RNP, can greatly reduce the length of any straight in segments needed for a FAS, and allow for accurate low RNP missed approaches to serve runways that ILS could never practically serve.
7) GLS right now already has better accuracy, integrity, and availability than ANY Wilcox ILS or ANGRN-27 that was used for the original Cat III approvals, at the four Type III ILS locations, or the 30+ Type II ILS locations back when we did the first airline approved Cat III Ops.
Once you've seen and flown GLS, particularly with RNP for the transitions to the FAS, and for the missed approach from the TDZ, you'll never want to fly any obsolete 1930s era original vintage ILS, even if it is re-born to the latest standard, ever again. That's how good GLS is.
GLS/GBAS along with RNP are the new global standard that will be with us for at least the next century. Long live the memory of ILS.
As for SBAS, ....SBAS is now an entirely obsolete waste of money. While SBAS once was a useful idea back when we only had 21+3 SVs, with SA turned "ON", ...now with "SA OFF" and 30+ GPS SVs alone, and with Galileo on the way, and even Glonass, ....SBAS is simply a $4B unnecessary obsolete waste of tax money. LPV, with its angular straight-in only criteria is another obsolete waste of both airspace and money. There is NOTHING whatsoever that LPV can do, that RNP can't do better, easier, quicker, and less expensively. Just like SBAS's WAAS and EGNOS, LPV is an idea whose time has come and gone. But also just like MLS, the FAA just hasn't figured that out yet.
1) GLS/GBAS is vastly better than, more accurate than, and less vulnerable than ILS, and far less expensive. One GLS can cover all runways even at places like KORD or KLAX)
2) GLS can be sited without the very difficult critical areas or site restrictions common to ILS.
3) GLS has virtually no multipath effects or interference (whereas ILS often NOTAMs itself out of service with a simple snowfall disturbing the G/S beam shaping surface.
4) GLS needs virtually no repetitive costly and time consuming flight inspection after it is commissioned compared to ILS.
5) GLS is steady as a rock and straight as an arrow, compared to the scalloping of raggedy ILS beams, making for improved autoflight response.
6) GLS/GBAS when combined with RNP, can greatly reduce the length of any straight in segments needed for a FAS, and allow for accurate low RNP missed approaches to serve runways that ILS could never practically serve.
7) GLS right now already has better accuracy, integrity, and availability than ANY Wilcox ILS or ANGRN-27 that was used for the original Cat III approvals, at the four Type III ILS locations, or the 30+ Type II ILS locations back when we did the first airline approved Cat III Ops.
Once you've seen and flown GLS, particularly with RNP for the transitions to the FAS, and for the missed approach from the TDZ, you'll never want to fly any obsolete 1930s era original vintage ILS, even if it is re-born to the latest standard, ever again. That's how good GLS is.
GLS/GBAS along with RNP are the new global standard that will be with us for at least the next century. Long live the memory of ILS.
As for SBAS, ....SBAS is now an entirely obsolete waste of money. While SBAS once was a useful idea back when we only had 21+3 SVs, with SA turned "ON", ...now with "SA OFF" and 30+ GPS SVs alone, and with Galileo on the way, and even Glonass, ....SBAS is simply a $4B unnecessary obsolete waste of tax money. LPV, with its angular straight-in only criteria is another obsolete waste of both airspace and money. There is NOTHING whatsoever that LPV can do, that RNP can't do better, easier, quicker, and less expensively. Just like SBAS's WAAS and EGNOS, LPV is an idea whose time has come and gone. But also just like MLS, the FAA just hasn't figured that out yet.
Very big-end-of-town-biased there, Tom. GLS might be good at the handful of big airports here, but what about the hundreds of smaller ones? And if you think the general aviation industry could cope with RNP-AR, you're on cloud-cuckoo land.
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RNP for anyone
Not so. 3 ft wingspan UAVs, to LSAs, to parachutists, ...to Raptors will eventually be using RNP (both trajectories and volumes) as well as GBAS (JPALS for DoD). I've even been flying a version of RNP .1 for over 8 years now in my C172C. It doesn't take rocket science. An it doesn't even need to be AR in the first place. AR only happened because it was new and unfamiliar to authorities, not because it was ever really needed. In fact, ADF/NDB ought to now be the AR requirement, not RNP. As to GBAS/GLS, if you understand what it really is at the foundation level, a simple GNSS receiver, uplinking corrections via a VHF link, it can be done so inexpensively that virtually any airport could have one. In fact, it's already being used in portable form (Portabas) and to land tiny UAVs. It is vastly simpler than ILS, can be very inexpensive, and networks of GBAS facilities used via multilateration could even go a long way to eventually solving the P-N-T issue, for protection from the 1000 year solar event. No sir, RNP, with GLS/GBAS are the future of global NAV.
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wow, quite the discussion.
First off, take SBAS off the table for AUS. I would NEVER see AUS floating the couple of $Billion required to set this up. The 2011 report estimates $1Billion to set it up in AUS, assuming they can bogart off of other existing sat systems. (as in the Russian GLOSNAS which blew up)
There would need to be 2 sats for horizontal and 3 if you want vertical guidance. AUS doesnt have the geostationary sat coverage to put this in place, so it would have to launch their own. There would need to be 2 ground stations and the associated infrastructure in place to implement. Just forget about this.
RNP-AR needs to be certified with the avionics system on the aircraft. In time, all of the combinations will be sorted, but unless it is cert for the combination, there is significant risk.
I have had the same procedure designed for an aircraft with a certain box, that the same aircraft with a different box will disco. One has no idea of the assumptions made by the manufacturer, until there is a flight test.
It is AR for these reasons, as there are many, many assumptions made by the different manufacturers, and combinations of assumptions that may or may not work.
GBAS not only broadcasts the correction factor, it also broadcasts the parameters of the final approach segment. The broadcast includes threshold location, TCH, GPA, and FAF location. That is the guidance, nothing more.
BTW, just so you are aware, ASA owns 50% of SmartPath.
First off, take SBAS off the table for AUS. I would NEVER see AUS floating the couple of $Billion required to set this up. The 2011 report estimates $1Billion to set it up in AUS, assuming they can bogart off of other existing sat systems. (as in the Russian GLOSNAS which blew up)
There would need to be 2 sats for horizontal and 3 if you want vertical guidance. AUS doesnt have the geostationary sat coverage to put this in place, so it would have to launch their own. There would need to be 2 ground stations and the associated infrastructure in place to implement. Just forget about this.
RNP-AR needs to be certified with the avionics system on the aircraft. In time, all of the combinations will be sorted, but unless it is cert for the combination, there is significant risk.
I have had the same procedure designed for an aircraft with a certain box, that the same aircraft with a different box will disco. One has no idea of the assumptions made by the manufacturer, until there is a flight test.
It is AR for these reasons, as there are many, many assumptions made by the different manufacturers, and combinations of assumptions that may or may not work.
GBAS not only broadcasts the correction factor, it also broadcasts the parameters of the final approach segment. The broadcast includes threshold location, TCH, GPA, and FAF location. That is the guidance, nothing more.
BTW, just so you are aware, ASA owns 50% of SmartPath.
and with Galileo on the way,
Tom
SBAS is simply a $4B unnecessary obsolete waste of tax money
I would NEVER see AUS floating the couple of $Billion required to set this up.
If SBAS is so last year, why are many other parts of the world commissioning SBAS systems? There's three operational systems, WAAS, EGNOS, MSAS, three being implemented GAGAN, SDCM, SNAS, with one SACCSA being researched. As I said earlier, Australasia will be about the only part of the developed world without SBAS.