Advice on Multi-Engine Rating
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Advice on Multi-Engine Rating
Hi guys, I just want to pick your brain on what the best way for me get my initial multi-engine rating. I a relatively fresh PPL holder with around ~80 hours. Before I attempt any training for the Multi, I must first get my CSU/Retract. However, at the club I am currently training at, a Beech Travelair is online. What do you guys think will be the most cost effective way to go about getting both the Multi and CSU/Retract. Do you think it will be better to first get the CSU/Retract in a single and then move on to the multi, or complete all of the training at the same time in the Travelair. The dual rate in the single (Beech Sierra) is ~370, and the Travel air ~435. I spoke to the instructors at my club and they had mixed views. So what do you guys think would be the best way, and how many hours did it take you to do these ratings?
Also, does anyone know of any C206 or Cherokee 6's for hire in South-East Melbourne, Hiring them would be much cheaper than getting the multi rating, and give a similar capability.
Also, does anyone know of any C206 or Cherokee 6's for hire in South-East Melbourne, Hiring them would be much cheaper than getting the multi rating, and give a similar capability.
At those rates, financially it is a no brainer.
But, it will depend somewhat on just how sharp you are, and whether you can find an instructor who is experienced enough in multi training and not afraid of the aeroplane. Because with only 80 hours you will probably need a patient and confident instructor.
Even if it adds two or three hours to the usual minimum time to get a multi rating, it will be money better spent in the twin. There is little additional complexity, or speed, but you will need to be able fly more accurately than what would be required for the single. Like EXACTLY at blue line speed. On the upside, you will find a twin generally nicer to handle because the heavier they get the more that usually applies. Unless the design is a dog to start with, but Travelairs are sweet enough.
But, it will depend somewhat on just how sharp you are, and whether you can find an instructor who is experienced enough in multi training and not afraid of the aeroplane. Because with only 80 hours you will probably need a patient and confident instructor.
Even if it adds two or three hours to the usual minimum time to get a multi rating, it will be money better spent in the twin. There is little additional complexity, or speed, but you will need to be able fly more accurately than what would be required for the single. Like EXACTLY at blue line speed. On the upside, you will find a twin generally nicer to handle because the heavier they get the more that usually applies. Unless the design is a dog to start with, but Travelairs are sweet enough.
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Why would you spend extra money on flying a single with a wobbly prop and up/down wheels when you're going to be flying a twin that does the same thing? Don't let anyone try and 'amaze' you with the wonders of 'complex type'. It's not difficult and certainly doesn't warrant doing it before you do your multi-engine class. Read up on the theory beforehand, study the specifics of the Travelair before you climb into it and just crack on with it all at the same time.
What Pontius wrote. You will get the same exposure to CSU/retract in the twin as the single, all while going about the normal twin training stuff. It shouldn't add any extra training hours. All that will happen is that at the end of your twin training, you will also be endorsed for CSU & retract.
It's a bit like when I started flying a Kingair 90, having never flown pressurised aircraft before. It wasn't expected that I go & get a 'pressurisation' endorsement prior to training in the aeroplane.
The biggest factor in how many hours you'll need is your current experience level (read 'skill') vs the standard you will need to be able to achieve to safely fly a twin. Not having a CSU/retract before starting twin stuff is negligible.
It's a bit like when I started flying a Kingair 90, having never flown pressurised aircraft before. It wasn't expected that I go & get a 'pressurisation' endorsement prior to training in the aeroplane.
The biggest factor in how many hours you'll need is your current experience level (read 'skill') vs the standard you will need to be able to achieve to safely fly a twin. Not having a CSU/retract before starting twin stuff is negligible.
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A lot of instructors to cover their asses will make you do 7 hours dual in a twin before giving you the endo so it makes sense to use that time to do the CSU and retract component.
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Thanks for the quick replies guys.
I am typically a fast learner (I'm still young, only 17. Can fly a plane anywhere but still can't drive without mum!), and I have had a fair bit of experience with the instructors who do the multis, and get along very with them. I'll most likely do it all in the upcoming school holidays, and keep the time between flights down, should make it a breeze.
I am typically a fast learner (I'm still young, only 17. Can fly a plane anywhere but still can't drive without mum!), and I have had a fair bit of experience with the instructors who do the multis, and get along very with them. I'll most likely do it all in the upcoming school holidays, and keep the time between flights down, should make it a breeze.
I shudder when I hear 'I'm a fast learner'
Having had three failures in a career of 6000 hours I would not like to be in an twin with you until you had a few hours twin under your belt
I did my initial twin on a Lockheed 12a which is a bloody nightmare radial twin
The guy who did the endorsement gave me one bit of advice 'this son of a bitch will bite of you lose an engine on take off' having heeded his words every take off I do now is standing at the end of the runway and telling myself an egone is going to fail between rotate and blue line. And guess what two failures were spot on
Don't listen to anyone who wants to give you a quick twin rating do the 7 hours. Get the instructor to take you to mangalore with a nice long runway and demonstrate failure at rotation. If you haven't changed underwear you will have learnt how to survive
I wish you well in your career
Having had three failures in a career of 6000 hours I would not like to be in an twin with you until you had a few hours twin under your belt
I did my initial twin on a Lockheed 12a which is a bloody nightmare radial twin
The guy who did the endorsement gave me one bit of advice 'this son of a bitch will bite of you lose an engine on take off' having heeded his words every take off I do now is standing at the end of the runway and telling myself an egone is going to fail between rotate and blue line. And guess what two failures were spot on
Don't listen to anyone who wants to give you a quick twin rating do the 7 hours. Get the instructor to take you to mangalore with a nice long runway and demonstrate failure at rotation. If you haven't changed underwear you will have learnt how to survive
I wish you well in your career
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Thanks for the advice. I'll see if we can get over to the Latrobe valley for a real demo. Does any of you have any recommendations on books that cover the theory?
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Cherokee 6, non retractable, single engine, but it does have a 430 ? Still wondering what that does towards a twin endorsement requiring two engines (2) and wheels that "come up" (retractable) ???
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Haha. It's the 6 seats I'm after, or the ability to carry 4 adults, fuel and luggage.
The plan was after getting the endo in the travel air and to move on to a P.68, even though I've never heard much good about the Partenavia.
I live down near Phillip Island, so a 2 and a half hour drive to the Yarra Valley isn't exactly ideal. I should have said south south east east Melbourne. Thanks though.
The plan was after getting the endo in the travel air and to move on to a P.68, even though I've never heard much good about the Partenavia.
I live down near Phillip Island, so a 2 and a half hour drive to the Yarra Valley isn't exactly ideal. I should have said south south east east Melbourne. Thanks though.
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How'd you guess I was from Tyabb 
? I would do the whole rating in the P.68 but the Travel airs are a bit cheaper, and the wheels go up. I might split the time between to two. Now that you put it like that, I guess it sounds like a bit of an Italian stallion.
? I would do the whole rating in the P.68 but the Travel airs are a bit cheaper, and the wheels go up. I might split the time between to two. Now that you put it like that, I guess it sounds like a bit of an Italian stallion.
I don't remember the PN68, ever being called a 'Stallion', but then I never had the opportunity to fly one where a 'Stallion' was required.....
It was 'adequate'....as are most 'light twins'....
Cheers
It was 'adequate'....as are most 'light twins'....
Cheers
Fast learner all right! Already has pprune down pat! And at just 17, has picked up some useful aviation lingo!
Looking forward to the next instalment.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
Get the instructor to take you to mangalore with a nice long runway and demonstrate failure at rotation.
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I've been silently studying the forums for a month or two now. A bit of pre-post briefing.
I gotta say, I do love the euphemisms for CSU's and retractable floating around.
I gotta say, I do love the euphemisms for CSU's and retractable floating around.
dhavillandpilot, sound advice ... it's all easy until it's not easy.
Please indulge my curiosity - those failures in the L12a (might be a bitch but she is a beautiful bitch), did you reject the takeoffs, or continue? And were they spectacular and obvious failures, or partial loss of power?
Please indulge my curiosity - those failures in the L12a (might be a bitch but she is a beautiful bitch), did you reject the takeoffs, or continue? And were they spectacular and obvious failures, or partial loss of power?
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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From my point of view re a ME rating; You cannot go past a Seneca 1.
Makes sign to ward off evil eye, throws salt over shoulder, takes out matchstick and breaks it etc etc.
If, after being thoroughly put through the wringer on one of those aircraft (as indeed I was by a certain TK and in a generally smoke filled cockpit an' all
, and God bless him for what he did for me
) you may rest assured that you will be able to fly any twin, in due course upon obtaining the necessary experience!
And I'm sure any Seneca 1 drivers, both current and former out there would agree.
Makes sign to ward off evil eye, throws salt over shoulder, takes out matchstick and breaks it etc etc.
If, after being thoroughly put through the wringer on one of those aircraft (as indeed I was by a certain TK and in a generally smoke filled cockpit an' all
, and God bless him for what he did for me) you may rest assured that you will be able to fly any twin, in due course upon obtaining the necessary experience!And I'm sure any Seneca 1 drivers, both current and former out there would agree.
Nothing wrong with getting a bit of time in a CSU single retract.
Too often today the first CSU retract that some pilots fly is a twin, which flies a third as fast again as anything they've ever flown.
A twin is a pretty big step up from what they've been flying, getting used to setting MP and RPM including getting the props in sync, raising and lowering the gear while climbing faster and having a significant increase in speed isn't necessarily a simple exercise.
Getting experience in a CSU, retract single prior to flying a twin has some value IMO.
Too often today the first CSU retract that some pilots fly is a twin, which flies a third as fast again as anything they've ever flown.
A twin is a pretty big step up from what they've been flying, getting used to setting MP and RPM including getting the props in sync, raising and lowering the gear while climbing faster and having a significant increase in speed isn't necessarily a simple exercise.
Getting experience in a CSU, retract single prior to flying a twin has some value IMO.
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I tend to agree with 27/09.
Sure people have done csu/retract endo's in twins, but if you are trying to chase it in minimum time, then all you are going to do is take away training time that could be better spent on learning the traps of a light single.
Do your CSU retract in a single..if you did your training on warriors, then you cannot go past an arrow for this. It was designed as a natural step up, so you will spend 95% of your flight time learning the systems, not 40 % learning the systems and 60% learning the aeroplane.
Get the CSU/Retract down pat in the cheaper single, then go an complicate it with an extra engine.
I did my CSU/Retract in an Arrow IV whilst holding a GFPT, and then began my twin rating with less than 10 hours private flying after my PPL test.
Travel-Air Versus Partenavia.
Drawing on my very first Central Oz trip here, I was flying a travel-air with light loading, in company of 2 Partenavia's.
The Part might have a big max take-off weight (1990kg IIRC) but its achillies heel is its maximum landing weight, which is 100 kg less...it means a long time burning fuel if you have a problem shortly after takeoff. ( yes i know, most emergencies we say the insurer owns it and land it....but a suddenly ill passenger?)
The travel-air can land at MTOW. I found on this 2 week trip...flying every day (oh how bad can that be), the 2 part's were load shedding to me. On no single day did I i depart below max weight
The Q of doing your initial multi in a travel-air vs a partenavia, is mute unless you have a plan for its immediate use and with proper consultation of the performance charts
Cheers
Jas
Sure people have done csu/retract endo's in twins, but if you are trying to chase it in minimum time, then all you are going to do is take away training time that could be better spent on learning the traps of a light single.
Do your CSU retract in a single..if you did your training on warriors, then you cannot go past an arrow for this. It was designed as a natural step up, so you will spend 95% of your flight time learning the systems, not 40 % learning the systems and 60% learning the aeroplane.
Get the CSU/Retract down pat in the cheaper single, then go an complicate it with an extra engine.
I did my CSU/Retract in an Arrow IV whilst holding a GFPT, and then began my twin rating with less than 10 hours private flying after my PPL test.
Travel-Air Versus Partenavia.
Drawing on my very first Central Oz trip here, I was flying a travel-air with light loading, in company of 2 Partenavia's.
The Part might have a big max take-off weight (1990kg IIRC) but its achillies heel is its maximum landing weight, which is 100 kg less...it means a long time burning fuel if you have a problem shortly after takeoff. ( yes i know, most emergencies we say the insurer owns it and land it....but a suddenly ill passenger?)
The travel-air can land at MTOW. I found on this 2 week trip...flying every day (oh how bad can that be), the 2 part's were load shedding to me. On no single day did I i depart below max weight
The Q of doing your initial multi in a travel-air vs a partenavia, is mute unless you have a plan for its immediate use and with proper consultation of the performance charts
Cheers
Jas