New shortage of pilots.
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Ha! You wimps should have been here during the '80s.
- You needed 500 hrs to get a job flying a C182.
- You needed 1000 hrs and 200 twin to get a job flying a Baron.
- You needed 2500 hrs to get a Metro FO job ( &1500 twin).
- You needed 4000 hrs to fly a Kingair.
- You needed 1000 hrs on a twin to wash the Citation.
Metroman: Get a wide-body command and can't retire because of failed tax schemes and 3 ex-wives to support.
Seriously, the standard of overseas pilots is very high. Understand that the notion of "superior Australian quality pilots" is just urban myth. I didn't quite get this until I flew overseas. I once worked with a cohort of about 12 Chiliean pilots and, to a man, they could wipe the floor with most Aussie pilots that I have worked with. The best pilot who I ever saw? Equal tie: a Brit and an East German. Do not delude yourself with the mis-placed belief that just because you are an Australian that the world will beat a path to your door. Because it won't.
- You needed 500 hrs to get a job flying a C182.
- You needed 1000 hrs and 200 twin to get a job flying a Baron.
- You needed 2500 hrs to get a Metro FO job ( &1500 twin).
- You needed 4000 hrs to fly a Kingair.
- You needed 1000 hrs on a twin to wash the Citation.
Metroman: Get a wide-body command and can't retire because of failed tax schemes and 3 ex-wives to support.
Seriously, the standard of overseas pilots is very high. Understand that the notion of "superior Australian quality pilots" is just urban myth. I didn't quite get this until I flew overseas. I once worked with a cohort of about 12 Chiliean pilots and, to a man, they could wipe the floor with most Aussie pilots that I have worked with. The best pilot who I ever saw? Equal tie: a Brit and an East German. Do not delude yourself with the mis-placed belief that just because you are an Australian that the world will beat a path to your door. Because it won't.
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Anthill has it.
I can remember getting a Navajo endorsement (paid for by the operator) for a job : " hmm, 3000 hrs, 800 Multi, aright, I suppose we can get you into the Navajo"
That was for an operator I had done C310 charters for, for two years!
As it happened Qantas recruited the next year, back when they did!
I can remember getting a Navajo endorsement (paid for by the operator) for a job : " hmm, 3000 hrs, 800 Multi, aright, I suppose we can get you into the Navajo"
That was for an operator I had done C310 charters for, for two years!
As it happened Qantas recruited the next year, back when they did!
I agree also with Anthill. Not to mention why would any Asian carrier give preference to Aussies when they have such a huge population to try and find work for. China has a very high youth unemployment rate as one example.
Asian governments are no different to anywhere else when it comes to trying to look after their own first. As it should be,and as it should be here as well.
Asian governments are no different to anywhere else when it comes to trying to look after their own first. As it should be,and as it should be here as well.
Ha! You wimps should have been here during the '80s.
1. ATPL
2. 4500 hrs total time
3. 3000 hrs multi time
4. 800 hrs turbine time
5. Multi crew experience.
I didn't even get an interview, the rejection letter explained that they wanted ENDORSED pilots only (their capital letters).
I knew a C206 driver with 5000 hrs total who couldn't get a twin job because he only had 25 hrs multi time.
Anecdotally, China buys into GA manufacture where no GA exists smells like years of forward planning taking hold. They know the military cannot provide enough pilots so my best guess is they are kickstarting an entire industry from ab initio thru to widebody using a GA pipeline. They have enough population to pick the cream. Interesting to see the socialist state crash into dog eat dog capitalist flight training and job access market. Fallout? Upward mobility? Increasing disposable incomes?
Francis...I understand your point. However, I feel that boat left for China
Francis...I understand your point. However, I feel that boat left for China
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Yes mate, you appear to be the only one who got my point. Shades of China Southern in Australia. Barney was a visionary.
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You're right there, MrFlappy. At 24 (in 1985) and with 700+ hrs applied to QF when I had all my Senior Com subjects. I got a reject letter saying that my " age for experience ratio was not sufficiently high for further consideration".
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@jezYBBN
Might understand where you are coming from... I busted my bum (read, blood sweat and tears) to get on to the Jet. Did initial training at American in DFW in the 80's. After flying REDUCED hours per month, longer flights (4 - 4.5 hour legs) with almost nothing to do upstairs ABOVE most of the traffic (which I found... boring)! With a routine of, you fly down and I'll fly back, you end up with 8 or 9 hours in the air, 1 T/O and 1 Landing for the entire trip. I couldn't wait to get back to the Tubines with mostly 2 hour legs, lot's of T/O's and landings, many more different destinations, etc.
Might understand where you are coming from... I busted my bum (read, blood sweat and tears) to get on to the Jet. Did initial training at American in DFW in the 80's. After flying REDUCED hours per month, longer flights (4 - 4.5 hour legs) with almost nothing to do upstairs ABOVE most of the traffic (which I found... boring)! With a routine of, you fly down and I'll fly back, you end up with 8 or 9 hours in the air, 1 T/O and 1 Landing for the entire trip. I couldn't wait to get back to the Tubines with mostly 2 hour legs, lot's of T/O's and landings, many more different destinations, etc.
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OK, I'll throw in my comment.
Back when I was about to hit age 30, I got two phone calls in one day
from Qantas.
I had just managed to pass all the Flight Engineer exams, and not having been a ground engineer I was told I had "unusual qualifications". Anyhow the first phone call was regarding an interview for a FE position and it was politely explained that I was TOO YOUNG as they wanted older guys they could "retire" with the 747's.
Then another person from Qantas called me in the same day and told me I was TOO OLD to be a pilot as I would not have enough years left to work for them.
Back when I was about to hit age 30, I got two phone calls in one day
from Qantas.
I had just managed to pass all the Flight Engineer exams, and not having been a ground engineer I was told I had "unusual qualifications". Anyhow the first phone call was regarding an interview for a FE position and it was politely explained that I was TOO YOUNG as they wanted older guys they could "retire" with the 747's.
Then another person from Qantas called me in the same day and told me I was TOO OLD to be a pilot as I would not have enough years left to work for them.
Shortage? Complete myth. Like a shortage of people that would choose a job as a Sports Illustrated photographer. Sure flying isn't as good as that but really there's plenty of people that will do it just to wear the uniform..
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ATPL
The point is, even if you do have a CASA ATPL, once you go overseas, how likely and difficult is it for you to come back home? Your oz MECIR expires, your ASIC expires and we don't even know if CASA would recognize your 737 or A320 rating and hours. It's almost a case of once you leave, you'll most likely never get to get back to Australia with the likes or Jetstar or Virgin. Once you get some hours up, the other better places (personal preference of course) to go if you only have an Australian passport is the Middle East, or if you are lucky, a Euro loco who get desperate for rated DEC (like Ryanair).
The problem in Australia is the access to the experience.
If hypothetically the rest of the world operated like we do; where you sacrifice 10+ years of your life moving house; living in remote areas; working for peanuts just to get 500 heavy single/twin/turbine there would be no pilots at all. Noone else is that stupid.
THE PROBLEM is that the rest of the world leave flight school straight into a turboprop or a jet. So an Australian by the time hes late 20's has fought his way into the RHS of a Regional or doing mining charter, the same guy in Europe or Asia is now a captain in a LCC.
So when you go on the world market the 30 year old Aussie has a few hours in a Dash and the European has A320 command time.
THAT's the problem on the world market.
Personally I think one of the reasons Australians probably overrate their experience is the difficulty in actually getting it, so therefore in their mind because it is difficult it is more valuable which unfortunately isn't actually true on a world market.
When you start working overseas you see what a load of BS the whole Australian system is and comparatively how difficult it is to be a pilot here.
If hypothetically the rest of the world operated like we do; where you sacrifice 10+ years of your life moving house; living in remote areas; working for peanuts just to get 500 heavy single/twin/turbine there would be no pilots at all. Noone else is that stupid.
THE PROBLEM is that the rest of the world leave flight school straight into a turboprop or a jet. So an Australian by the time hes late 20's has fought his way into the RHS of a Regional or doing mining charter, the same guy in Europe or Asia is now a captain in a LCC.
So when you go on the world market the 30 year old Aussie has a few hours in a Dash and the European has A320 command time.
THAT's the problem on the world market.
Personally I think one of the reasons Australians probably overrate their experience is the difficulty in actually getting it, so therefore in their mind because it is difficult it is more valuable which unfortunately isn't actually true on a world market.
When you start working overseas you see what a load of BS the whole Australian system is and comparatively how difficult it is to be a pilot here.
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Nice post Neville,
I can relate to that. I went overseas at 26 and did the whole camping thing to land my second flying job (after instructing) flying a C206. It took me 8 weeks living in a tent before that happened. At the same time a Spanish kid 19 years old arrived also looking for work after getting his CPL. He lasted 1 week before deciding it was to hard to get a job and left.
3 months later whilst I am happy to be flying a C206 for peanuts I look on Facebook and see the Spanish kid is now doing his line training on a 737.
I am 30 now and no further along in my career. That kid is probably getting close to Captain. Any newbie thinking about aviation in Australia should go Airforce or Cadetship.
The traditional way is dead in Australia, after Jetstar and Virgin went into huge expansion sucking up lots of pilots in the mid 00's those companies have levelled out and now becoming more mature. Which means far less expansion, which means less planes bought, meaning no need for pilots.
Shortage of pilots in Australia is not going to happen. Excess of pilots in Australia has happened.
I can relate to that. I went overseas at 26 and did the whole camping thing to land my second flying job (after instructing) flying a C206. It took me 8 weeks living in a tent before that happened. At the same time a Spanish kid 19 years old arrived also looking for work after getting his CPL. He lasted 1 week before deciding it was to hard to get a job and left.
3 months later whilst I am happy to be flying a C206 for peanuts I look on Facebook and see the Spanish kid is now doing his line training on a 737.
I am 30 now and no further along in my career. That kid is probably getting close to Captain. Any newbie thinking about aviation in Australia should go Airforce or Cadetship.
The traditional way is dead in Australia, after Jetstar and Virgin went into huge expansion sucking up lots of pilots in the mid 00's those companies have levelled out and now becoming more mature. Which means far less expansion, which means less planes bought, meaning no need for pilots.
Shortage of pilots in Australia is not going to happen. Excess of pilots in Australia has happened.
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I agree Goat,
Not saying that no movement will occur. But it's not going to be at the pace we had only a few years earlier.
How many more flights does Australia need? I could go online now and go to any destination within Australia without having to wait for an open booking.
I just can't see how the airlines can grow much bigger over the next decade. Unless we ramp immigration up.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can chime in. Perhaps I am talking nonsense.
Not saying that no movement will occur. But it's not going to be at the pace we had only a few years earlier.
How many more flights does Australia need? I could go online now and go to any destination within Australia without having to wait for an open booking.
I just can't see how the airlines can grow much bigger over the next decade. Unless we ramp immigration up.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge can chime in. Perhaps I am talking nonsense.
The point is, even if you do have a CASA ATPL, once you go overseas, how likely and difficult is it for you to come back home?
A basing with a foreign airline such as Korean Air or China Southern might be all that's available for a wide body driver, which could be a good option but be careful of tax implications.
Financially, coming back is usually going to involve major belt tightening with lower pay, higher taxes and higher living costs.