CASA Costly Low Flying Endorsement
Thread Starter
CASA Costly Low Flying Endorsement
At the time I was Chairman of CASA it was decided by the management team that CASA would follow FAR91.119 re minimum safe altitudes for aircraft. This allows a fixed wing aircraft to fly at any low altitude providing it is at least 500 feet from a person, vessel, vehicle or structure, with a helicopter exempt from having to comply with the 500 feet rule in relation to a person, vessel, vehicle or structure as long as it can be done without “hazard to persons or property on the surface”.
However, since my time at CASA I understand that CASA has changed this to where it requires a special low flying endorsement – even for Recreational Aviation Australia ultralight pilots!
Just yesterday I was phoned and told that there is now a renewal requirement for the low flying endorsement. Can anyone advise if this is so? And if it is, is it six monthly, annual or biennial? Of course, all these costs add unnecessarily to general aviation and make us even less competitive with our overseas counterparts.
However, since my time at CASA I understand that CASA has changed this to where it requires a special low flying endorsement – even for Recreational Aviation Australia ultralight pilots!
Just yesterday I was phoned and told that there is now a renewal requirement for the low flying endorsement. Can anyone advise if this is so? And if it is, is it six monthly, annual or biennial? Of course, all these costs add unnecessarily to general aviation and make us even less competitive with our overseas counterparts.
Well Dick, it certainly looks like you are correct on the face of it, however I can't quite nail the exact requirement. Possibly you struggled like I did.
Learn about new rules for proficiency checks – in effect since 1 September 2014.
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset..._checks_fs.pdf
Whilst I can't find something that specifically mentions it, the following is located within the link above:
If I've got this right, you need to conduct a proficiency check of your ratings?
Learn about new rules for proficiency checks – in effect since 1 September 2014.
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset..._checks_fs.pdf
Whilst I can't find something that specifically mentions it, the following is located within the link above:
Do I need to do a proficiency check if I complete a flight review?
Yes. Flight reviews are not specified for ratings that require
a proficiency check. However, if you complete a proficiency
check in a particular type or class of aircraft, the flight review
requirement for that class or type of aircraft is satisfied by
completing the proficiency check.
An aerial application proficiency check satisfies the low-level
rating flight review requirement (61.1060).
Yes. Flight reviews are not specified for ratings that require
a proficiency check. However, if you complete a proficiency
check in a particular type or class of aircraft, the flight review
requirement for that class or type of aircraft is satisfied by
completing the proficiency check.
An aerial application proficiency check satisfies the low-level
rating flight review requirement (61.1060).
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Dick,
You might find some of the posts by Yr Right within the last couple of pages of the Milton Jones threads quite tempting. e.g.
Apparently he's read a regulation (which is not CAR 157) which (we think) gives him some guidance in this regard however, as usual, he's not sharing it which is unusual as (according to him) he's got vast legal experience and has given expert evidence in a matter or matters which he's also not sharing.
Enjoy,
Stiky
You might find some of the posts by Yr Right within the last couple of pages of the Milton Jones threads quite tempting. e.g.
I will state again. If it's YOUR poperty you can fly over it below 500 feet. You need no vh rego no m/r no pilot lic nothing to do with RAA.
You may over your property use an aircraft for fire fighting if it's your own aircraft and if it's your poperty. You however May not use it over at your nabours place
You may over your property use an aircraft for fire fighting if it's your own aircraft and if it's your poperty. You however May not use it over at your nabours place
Enjoy,
Stiky
Dick,
There is a huge difference in how low level flight is treated between the USA and Australia. In the USA you can fly below 500 feet as long as you are not closer than 500feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. You do not need a reason to be doing it you can. If you want to cruise up the coast of the Outer Banks of North Carolina at 50feet go for it as long as there aren't any cars(or people) on the beach.
The Australian rules are far more restrictive.
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 157 Low flying
There is a huge difference in how low level flight is treated between the USA and Australia. In the USA you can fly below 500 feet as long as you are not closer than 500feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. You do not need a reason to be doing it you can. If you want to cruise up the coast of the Outer Banks of North Carolina at 50feet go for it as long as there aren't any cars(or people) on the beach.
The Australian rules are far more restrictive.
CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 157 Low flying
Thread Starter
I am told that under the old CAR5 low level training was a one-off and it was perpetual. However, under Part 61 the low level flying needs to be assessed every two years. Amazing! Imagine the cost of that!
It’s interesting – CASA said that Part 61 was to have no negative economic effect on the industry. It is clear that it is going to have a major economic effect and further destroy a once viable aviation industry.
As I have said many times before, it is all very sad and so unnecessary. Then again, I suppose if you work for CASA or for the Department you would say there is nothing anywhere that says you have to look at cost and as far as CASA and the Department are concerned, the more expensive it is, the fewer people who fly and so fewer problems. Remember that dishonest “Yes Minister” episode about the hospital with no patients? Well, that type of dishonesty has been carried through to the Department and CASA at this present time.
It’s interesting – CASA said that Part 61 was to have no negative economic effect on the industry. It is clear that it is going to have a major economic effect and further destroy a once viable aviation industry.
As I have said many times before, it is all very sad and so unnecessary. Then again, I suppose if you work for CASA or for the Department you would say there is nothing anywhere that says you have to look at cost and as far as CASA and the Department are concerned, the more expensive it is, the fewer people who fly and so fewer problems. Remember that dishonest “Yes Minister” episode about the hospital with no patients? Well, that type of dishonesty has been carried through to the Department and CASA at this present time.
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-stikybeke
If you are going to dripple crap at least get it right. I have never said I have vast legal experience. What I did say if it's YOUR place. Which means you have legal entitlement you can do what you wish.
If you are going to dripple crap at least get it right. I have never said I have vast legal experience. What I did say if it's YOUR place. Which means you have legal entitlement you can do what you wish.
yr right, your property is only the land, the air is not private property and therefore subject to the same regulations as your neighbours place. This is why it may be trespassing for me to land at your joint but not to fly over it. Your 'advice' is once again uttter tosh.
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The 500 foot thing seems crazy to me. I am far safer in my cub at 100 feet over these east coast uninhabited beaches than 2,000 feet over miles of forest. Regulation for regulation's sake?
And if they're so concerned, went do they allow single engine into Banks town over urban Sydney?
And if they're so concerned, went do they allow single engine into Banks town over urban Sydney?
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Can we please stop yr_right hijacking another thread? For gods sake no one mention wind turbines or LAME's, or anything within 100nm of Crookwell.
Don't poke the idiot with a stick please, he will only sing.
Don't poke the idiot with a stick please, he will only sing.
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Fair call 50/50...
I was going to but on reflection he's never shared any of his experience regarding his evidence in court where he allegedly "took CASA on" and won regarding a maintenance issue so I'll put the stick back into the fire....
Stiky
I was going to but on reflection he's never shared any of his experience regarding his evidence in court where he allegedly "took CASA on" and won regarding a maintenance issue so I'll put the stick back into the fire....
Stiky
I am told that under the old CAR5 low level training was a one-off and it was perpetual
However, CASA could issue a Permit against the requirements of CAR 157(4)(b) with a condition that the pilot conducting operations in accordance with the provisions of the Permit had to undergo training as detailed the company OM.
As there was no training syllabus published by CASA as such the first 5 hours of the mustering approval syllabus was considered suitable and was either referenced as the syllabus or the syllabus included in the OM and a company "Low Flying Training Certificate" issued.
One could argue that this Certificate would only be applicable while the pilot was employed by the Operator as the training was in accordance with the Operator's syllabus.
In theory, a pilot who had an AG Rating issued under the CAO or the equivalent under Part 137, could not conduct a photography flight at low level as that pilot's training would not be in accordance with the OM unless the OM made provision for this.
I have not read or not am I interested in the machinations of Part 61.
I will leave that to those still active in the industry.
Dick,
Have you worked out yet the number of "flight reviews" and IR renewals you now have to do under Part 61, with your variety of aircraft?
Once you do, it is going to horrify you.
Tootle pip!!
PS: The way I read the low level requirements, you have to do 5h dual for each one. You can get a PPL in less hours.
Have you worked out yet the number of "flight reviews" and IR renewals you now have to do under Part 61, with your variety of aircraft?
Once you do, it is going to horrify you.
Tootle pip!!
PS: The way I read the low level requirements, you have to do 5h dual for each one. You can get a PPL in less hours.
I am far safer in my cub at 100 feet over these east coast uninhabited beaches than 2,000 feet over miles of forest. Regulation for regulation's sake?
Are you 'safer' at 100' over the coast or at 100' over the forest?
If arguing about height, you really should keep the other variables constant, otherwise your argument looses validity.
As to low flying. I think some people might be confusing low level 'cruising', ie a nice 50' jaunt up the beach, with 'low level flying', ie, mustering, Vallely flying etc.
I would argue that LL flying, requires the pilot to be truly 'in tune' with their aircraft and surrounds (WX etc), and as such does require some form of training.
To argue that you can Solo in 5 hours but can't low fly in that is distorting the argument. After 5 hours of flight, a student will fly at a safe height (except for the takeoff and landing bit
) where, errors in speed, G or general aircraft handling are more forgiving.That luxury is not afforded at low level.
I am not arguing for any particular training scheme, or recurrency time frame, however, wanted to make the points above.
Statements of 'safer' or such, need to be examined.
Coolnames
Thread Starter
Leady It will be five different renewals .
In the USA I would do one to cover everything - the yearly CJ3 single pilot renewal.
Fortunately I can afford this stupidity but it's clear that the commercial side of the industry will be in real troubles .
A huge increase in cost without one little bit of evidence that there is an existing safety problem!
In the USA I would do one to cover everything - the yearly CJ3 single pilot renewal.
Fortunately I can afford this stupidity but it's clear that the commercial side of the industry will be in real troubles .
A huge increase in cost without one little bit of evidence that there is an existing safety problem!
I'm currently reading James Holland's very interesting 2012 book:
"DAM BUSTERS. THE RACE TO SMASH THE DAMS 1943."
I wonder how many of those young 617 Sqn RAF Lancaster pilots would have passed current CASA low flying requirements?
"DAM BUSTERS. THE RACE TO SMASH THE DAMS 1943."
I wonder how many of those young 617 Sqn RAF Lancaster pilots would have passed current CASA low flying requirements?
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It has been said.....
"A pilot passing Commercial flight test today would not have passed a Private test twenty years ago"
After flying with some newbe's I would have to agree. The standard today (with few exceptions) is poor. Trouble is CASA don't see it!!
"A pilot passing Commercial flight test today would not have passed a Private test twenty years ago"
After flying with some newbe's I would have to agree. The standard today (with few exceptions) is poor. Trouble is CASA don't see it!!
After flying with some newbe's I would have to agree. The standard today (with few exceptions) is poor.
If you are talking about the stick and rudder skills plus common sense, I certainly agree.
But the current generation can regurgitate often quite amazing volumes of regulation (whether they understand it, or not).
I could not have done the same thing, as a PPL, one reason being that the vast volumes of regulation simply did not then exist!!
As one particular Canberra based nincompoop said, at a consultative meeting: "It's easy to write safety rules, the problem is forcing people to comply with them".
This from the same branch as a fellow said:"As far as I am concerned, pilots and engineers are just criminal who haven't been caught yet".
There you have an over-simplistic, but nevertheless reasonable example of the core "CASA culture".
Tootle pip!!
PS: Anybody had a look yet at the new CAAP for Operations Manuals, it is so bad it makes Part 61 look concise, useful and reasonable.
In the USA I would do one to cover everything - the yearly CJ3 single pilot renewal.
Which is what I needed to do here, until Part 61.
Now the total for me is (at least) 6, and I can't afford it (even if I can afford the "new " medical test standards, it ain't just CVD).
Airline pilots who fly in GA are in for a bit of a surprise, when they find out none of their airline training and checks counts any more.
Tootle pip!!