Part 61 Sim Hours
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: victoria
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Part 61 Sim Hours
After flying a Cat D sim. Where do the hours end up being logged.
In the back under simulator.
But do they also go at the front and count towards Aeronautical experience?
In the back under simulator.
But do they also go at the front and count towards Aeronautical experience?
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: ...second left, past the lights.
Posts: 1,101
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Great question Advs, as it's all mixed up.
In short, it depends where you're operating... the Country of Licence your Type Rating is on.
Now assuming you're Rated on Type (or on an integrated course to do so), with an Approved Training Organisation and with a qualified checky/Instructor who signs/"stamps you out"... the following apply:
Yes, the old CAT D Sim (FFS) is now the new Type 7 Full Flight Simulator and eligible for Zero Flight Time (ZFT) training, hence is recognised as virtually the real thing and so can be logged in the back and front (IF signed of by qualified Instructor).
For example here is the FAA:
*27 previous categories of flight training device were rationalised into 7 international ones. This work has been accepted by ICAO (published under ICAO document 9625 Issue 3, of which Australia's new Licencing comes under now since Sept 1st.
Personally, I use one of the blank columns on the left of the logbook page, to keep running totals of the Full Flight Sims completed, next to the P1/P2 night/day entry. This enables me to add or subtract easily from Total Experience, as and when the need arises, as some airlines recognise it while others don't, while Aviation Authorities in every country are also very different around the globe.
I hope this helps and no doubt there will be more finite inputs from others on here.
Happy landings
*FFS- Full Flight Simulators- duplicate all aspects of an aircraft and its environment with the use of motion in all six degrees of freedom and high fidelity visual systems.
LMC: 'dude : just ask the Checky at debrief what you should put coz he's got the Sim plan/profile there and has a better idea of your day/night; P1/P2 than the dashboard clock
In short, it depends where you're operating... the Country of Licence your Type Rating is on.
Now assuming you're Rated on Type (or on an integrated course to do so), with an Approved Training Organisation and with a qualified checky/Instructor who signs/"stamps you out"... the following apply:
Yes, the old CAT D Sim (FFS) is now the new Type 7 Full Flight Simulator and eligible for Zero Flight Time (ZFT) training, hence is recognised as virtually the real thing and so can be logged in the back and front (IF signed of by qualified Instructor).
For example here is the FAA:
(4) A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.
(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.
Personally, I use one of the blank columns on the left of the logbook page, to keep running totals of the Full Flight Sims completed, next to the P1/P2 night/day entry. This enables me to add or subtract easily from Total Experience, as and when the need arises, as some airlines recognise it while others don't, while Aviation Authorities in every country are also very different around the globe.
I hope this helps and no doubt there will be more finite inputs from others on here.
Happy landings
*FFS- Full Flight Simulators- duplicate all aspects of an aircraft and its environment with the use of motion in all six degrees of freedom and high fidelity visual systems.
LMC: 'dude : just ask the Checky at debrief what you should put coz he's got the Sim plan/profile there and has a better idea of your day/night; P1/P2 than the dashboard clock
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: ...second left, past the lights.
Posts: 1,101
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Never and I mean NEVER use white out in your logbook.
It's a legal document and once white out is there the question marks start appearing... especially after/with all the dodgy stuff that's come/is coming out of India and China etc... hence all the requirements for official company letters of service and company logbook stamps through Asia & M.E. right now.
If you have an amendment to make, put a line through it and adjust or rewrite.
Yes, throw you Cyclics in their, even if it is backdated and in a slab... and grab a copy of your Sim Training & Cyclic results (Training file) as prospective employers love delving their noses into these at your interviews, especially if they're Glass cockpit/jet.
At the actual sessions, you should have received either a logbook sticker or stamp, clarifying your status (Route Check/Recency/IFR Renewal/Biennial etc). If not you need to get your logbook stamped by your company to confirm all checks and recency requirements where complied with... the company has an obligation to do so.
It's a legal document and once white out is there the question marks start appearing... especially after/with all the dodgy stuff that's come/is coming out of India and China etc... hence all the requirements for official company letters of service and company logbook stamps through Asia & M.E. right now.
If you have an amendment to make, put a line through it and adjust or rewrite.
Yes, throw you Cyclics in their, even if it is backdated and in a slab... and grab a copy of your Sim Training & Cyclic results (Training file) as prospective employers love delving their noses into these at your interviews, especially if they're Glass cockpit/jet.
At the actual sessions, you should have received either a logbook sticker or stamp, clarifying your status (Route Check/Recency/IFR Renewal/Biennial etc). If not you need to get your logbook stamped by your company to confirm all checks and recency requirements where complied with... the company has an obligation to do so.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: ...second left, past the lights.
Posts: 1,101
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
White out comment... fair enough then but many others not so smart. You wouldn't believe what I've seen 
I know Eastern never did issue logbook stuff with their 3 monthly cyclics but just signed your Cyclic Card as a record of their internal currency/recency program. Accordingly I got photocopies of each Test Result from the checky, which assisted in studying weak points for the next round also.
This has held me in good stead in the following years as latter airlines were able to see what marking/type of system I was under.
It is well worth the effort shags
Keen to see others input on this too, as you said also.
Happy landings.
I know Eastern never did issue logbook stuff with their 3 monthly cyclics but just signed your Cyclic Card as a record of their internal currency/recency program. Accordingly I got photocopies of each Test Result from the checky, which assisted in studying weak points for the next round also.
This has held me in good stead in the following years as latter airlines were able to see what marking/type of system I was under.
It is well worth the effort shags
Keen to see others input on this too, as you said also.
Happy landings.
I'm no expert on Part 61, however, I do believe that prior to Sept 1st, hours in a full flight sim (Level D) did not count for aeronautical experience. You could log the IF you did, but that's it. My sim hours go on the pages towards the back of the logbook that say "Simulator" on them.
If that's correct, you could have 10,000 cyclics under your belt, but the 9,999 that you did prior to Sept 1 still fall under the old rules. Just because the rules changed, doesn't mean you can go back and claim things that happened prior to the rule change.
Personally, I don't think hours in any sim should count as aeronautical experience. You're flying a frigging box that is in such a controlled environment, that you could hardly call it 'flying'.
morno
If that's correct, you could have 10,000 cyclics under your belt, but the 9,999 that you did prior to Sept 1 still fall under the old rules. Just because the rules changed, doesn't mean you can go back and claim things that happened prior to the rule change.
Personally, I don't think hours in any sim should count as aeronautical experience. You're flying a frigging box that is in such a controlled environment, that you could hardly call it 'flying'.
morno
Sim hours aside fpv, you acquired those hours under CAR 1988. Just because CASR 1998 Part 61 is now in use, it doesn't mean that everything prior to it is all of a sudden law prior to the effective date of the new law.
And I've looked over Part 61, can you show me where it says the whole 50% copilot time is now gone? And where does it also say that hours in a sim count towards total time?
morno
And I've looked over Part 61, can you show me where it says the whole 50% copilot time is now gone? And where does it also say that hours in a sim count towards total time?
morno
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fpvdude, please provide the link to the other thread and any other info to corroborate your understanding. I have a feeling that it can't be backdated but I'm open to convincing guidance from the authorities.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys,
Every hour-total in your logbook is examined by CASA under current law.
The exception is when an amendment to the law causes a change in the approval of the device you did the flying on, or a change in the qualification the instructor you flew with. This mostly affects people who were only halfway through training or hour-building at the time of the law change. You might end up having to start again if CASA suddenly ceases to recognise work done so far. This rarely affects domestic ops, although it is very much a problem for people moving overseas.
However, the next time I approach CASA with logbook in hand, it will be assessed from beginning to end under Part 61. Hours are still hours, even where a particular simulator has changed its approval from Cat D to Level nine & three quarters.
Happy side effect - since moving here from overseas I've not bothered with Aeronautical Experience. My logbook doesn't have a space for that piece of information on every page. Now I don't ever have to worry about the 50% calculation, as the rule has been removed. Even though much of my flying was done under the old rules, Aero Exp has been reset for every logbook presented to CASA.
Every hour-total in your logbook is examined by CASA under current law.
The exception is when an amendment to the law causes a change in the approval of the device you did the flying on, or a change in the qualification the instructor you flew with. This mostly affects people who were only halfway through training or hour-building at the time of the law change. You might end up having to start again if CASA suddenly ceases to recognise work done so far. This rarely affects domestic ops, although it is very much a problem for people moving overseas.
However, the next time I approach CASA with logbook in hand, it will be assessed from beginning to end under Part 61. Hours are still hours, even where a particular simulator has changed its approval from Cat D to Level nine & three quarters.
Happy side effect - since moving here from overseas I've not bothered with Aeronautical Experience. My logbook doesn't have a space for that piece of information on every page. Now I don't ever have to worry about the 50% calculation, as the rule has been removed. Even though much of my flying was done under the old rules, Aero Exp has been reset for every logbook presented to CASA.
That's nice, but no one can come up with any reference in the regs that stipulates this can they?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's nice, but no one can come up with any reference in the regs that stipulates this can they?
Nowhere does Part 61 say "flights prior to 1 October 2014 will be assessed under the regulations 1988". Part 61 states what will happen today, regardless of what date previously you gained a particular experience recognised by Part 61. If you submit a logbook for inspection, CASA will inspect it under all logbook rules that are in force on the day of inspection - which is Part 61.
When you have qualifications from three regulators, some earned, some granted and some deemed, you get to understand how The Man looks at logbooks.
There are two things in Australian logbooks that are a bit of a nonsense.
1) Putting sim hours away at the back. Guys, time in an approved sim is recognised as a form of experience like any other. It goes in the column marked "Instrument Time - Ground" or similar. Add it all up like any other column, claim credit as permitted by Part 61 like any other column.
2) Aeronautical Experience. You only use this number when asked on an license application (or possibly a job application, but personally I'm more interested in flight time or PIC time. Whatevs.) Why calculate a number on every page of your daily experience journal, that will only be actually used a few times in your career?
However, one cannot fight City Hall, as they say.
Last edited by Oktas8; 12th Nov 2014 at 11:54.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: victoria
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Part 61 Sim Hours
Got the answer thanks.
Enter both in the back and the front front being I be SimColumn and also adding to Aeronautical experience
Co pilot time still exist. So 50% rule hasn't changed.
Enter both in the back and the front front being I be SimColumn and also adding to Aeronautical experience
Co pilot time still exist. So 50% rule hasn't changed.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And I've looked over Part 61, can you show me where it says the whole 50% copilot time is now gone? And where does it also say that hours in a sim count towards total time?
morno
61.075
61.080
61.085
61.105
61.110
??
Thanks FJ.
It talks about Instrument Ground Time, doesn't talk about anything to do with logging the time in the sim as flight time.
morno
It talks about Instrument Ground Time, doesn't talk about anything to do with logging the time in the sim as flight time.
morno
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It talks about Instrument Ground Time, doesn't talk about anything to do with logging the time in the sim as flight time.
morno
morno
And I've looked over Part 61, can you show me where it says the whole 50% copilot time is now gone? And where does it also say that hours in a sim count towards total time?
morno
morno
Sim time isn't logged as Flight Time, as defined in 61.080,
but as aeronautical experience, as defined in 61.075.
From 61.075
Definition of aeronautical experience for Part 61
A person’s aeronautical experience is as follows:
(a) for a pilot—the total of:
(i) the person’s flight time as a pilot;; and
(ii) the person’s simulated flight time;; and
(iii) the person’s tethered flight time;;
A person’s aeronautical experience is as follows:
(a) for a pilot—the total of:
(i) the person’s flight time as a pilot;; and
(ii) the person’s simulated flight time;; and
(iii) the person’s tethered flight time;;
Simulated flight time is defined by 61.010 as
simulated flight time means time spent in a flight simulation training device during which a pilot is performing the duties of a pilot
Hours in the sim are not total time, they are Aero Experience as designated by 61.075, what you information you must log from the sim is in 61.345.
61.345 Personal logbooks—pilots
A person who holds a pilot licence...
blah blah blah..
The person must, as soon as practicable after completing each simulated flight in a flight simulation training device, record the following *information in the person’s logbook for the simulated flight:
(a) the date the simulated flight began;
(b) the type of aircraft represented by the device;
(c) the simulated flight time (if any) performed in each of the
following capacities:
(i) pilot in command;
(ii) co-pilot;
(iii) pilot in command under supervision;
(iv) pilot receiving flight training;
(d) if the person is a flight instructor or simulator instructor— any time spent exercising the privileges of his or her instructor rating;
(e) whether the flight was conducted in simulated day or night conditions, or both;
(f) a description of the simulated flight activity..
A person who holds a pilot licence...
blah blah blah..
The person must, as soon as practicable after completing each simulated flight in a flight simulation training device, record the following *information in the person’s logbook for the simulated flight:
(a) the date the simulated flight began;
(b) the type of aircraft represented by the device;
(c) the simulated flight time (if any) performed in each of the
following capacities:
(i) pilot in command;
(ii) co-pilot;
(iii) pilot in command under supervision;
(iv) pilot receiving flight training;
(d) if the person is a flight instructor or simulator instructor— any time spent exercising the privileges of his or her instructor rating;
(e) whether the flight was conducted in simulated day or night conditions, or both;
(f) a description of the simulated flight activity..
Looks like we all new a few new columns in our log books…
SIM COMMAND, DAY / NIGHT,
SIM ICUS, DAY / NIGHT,
etc.
These new Regs are so clear, to recap 61.010 gives some definitions, 61.075 gives some more definitions and 61.345 tells you how to log hours that it fails to fully define,
Clear as mud?
Don't even ask about PBN approvals and 2D v 3D.
Clear as mud?
- Any pages in my logbook with 50% co-pilot time on them, are now illegally filled out
- TAE equals Total Time..... ohh wait, that can't be right, because sim time counts towards my aeronautical experience but not my total time. So does that mean my TAE now exceed's my Total Time?
In all honesty, these are absolutely stupidly written. I don't even want to fill out my logbook because I honestly can't understand what I'm supposed to write.
CASA, are you reading this?
morno
