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Old 16th Oct 2014, 02:40
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Actually the basic concept of Separation Assurance is a good thing. Unfortunately its hard to pin down to an exact definition in some circumstances, and can be subject to individual interpretation. One way of putting it wold be that controllers are supposed to be good, not lucky!
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 04:57
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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NB

hard to pin down to an exact definition in some circumstances, and can be subject to individual interpretation
Exactly

JR

A B737 departs SY for PH, a B737 departs PH for SY, how is separation assured?
Exactly
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 05:29
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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If you're worried about that then how are they even separated? Stand yourself down now!
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 05:31
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Separation Assurance is not possible or practised in Approach or Departures environment so the scenario of one departing SY/PH is not applicable. As much as I think sep ass is bs, it is mainly applied in the enroute environment.
The runway standard applied to a landing behind a preceding departing aircraft is that you do not permit the landing aircraft to cross the runway threshold until the preceding aircraft is airborne and:
a. has commenced a turn; or
b. is beyond the point on the runway at which the landing aircraft
could be expected to complete its landing roll; and
c. there is sufficient distance to enable the landing aircraft to
manoeuvre safely in the event of a missed approach.
Maybe in this instance the Virgin pilot made the decision to go round catching the ADC by surprise?
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 05:32
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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But equally very black and white in some cases. A 737 climbing out of PH crossing a descending 737 inbound from SY may well climb above before the crossing point or pass in front/behind, but you don't just hope.

Separation Assurance is not possible or practised in Approach or Departures environment
So what do you call SIDs and STARs with complementary VNAVs?

Most arguments against Separation Assurance use ridiculous exaggerated examples, applied logically it has a place.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 05:58
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Of course you do not just hope, Nautilis, there are radar standards in place to take care of such situations and SIDS an STARS are there for tragic flow purposes. How often have you heard the instruction " cancel SID.......". A breakdown of separation or sep ass.......I don't think so.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 06:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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There's nothing logical about categorizing this incident as a LOSA.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 06:37
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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But what about the dozens of times a day that the 27 or 16 departures from ML to the NE don't have their SID cancelled and climb over the top of the arrivals on the ARBEY STAR?
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 07:34
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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SIDS an STARS are there for tragic flow purposes
I think based on that it would be wisest to agree to disagree, we are unlikely to convince each other.

There's nothing logical about categorizing this incident as a LOSA.
If ASA Safety are calling it a LOSA then by definition there was no LOS, so what else would you call it?

"The controller messed up but by luck and/or pilot action three was no loss of separation" is just another definition of LOSA.

Unless you believe there was a LOS in which case you need to take it further and formally immediately, because there has either been a fundamental error in the investigation or a cover up.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 08:38
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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NB
Mate, I've been out of it for a while, but me and my colleagues were, in Paul Keating terms, "done" for much much less.
Look, if the C25A hesitated when he said he would go, this is s**t bad luck for the controller. He used his judgement and from that moment on, LOSA goes out the window.
But in my mind, two aircraft aren't going to get much closer than this. The poor enroute people have to justify 900' and 4.5nm for goodness sake.
I have no axe to grind, but this clerical approach to operational matters leaves me cold.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 09:07
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Cue David Attenborough:
And here we see the very unusual territorial behaviour of the Lesser Spotted Aussie Controller.

A generally shy and very reserved species, they only show themselves when one of their kind engages in the behaviour known as a "f*ck up". But even then, any display of internal dissent is usually confined to local colonies.

Here we see the Lesser Spotted Aussie Controller in a rare public display of post f*ck-up public disagreement, almost certainly to be resolved by emails-to-the-death.
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 09:14
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I'm saying it does have a place despite the fact that it can be a bit vague and open to interpretation. Don't write off the idea altogether. Use it when its black and white, like issuing requirements, putting aircraft on headings etc. rather than relying on profile sep. Most of what we all do every day is qualifies as separation assurance anyway.

The poor enroute people have to justify 900' and 4.5nm for goodness sake
You have been gone a long time. 4.9 is a breakdown these days.

If you think there was a LOS, then all considerations of SA are irrelevant anyway.

Are we saying that what ASA calls LOSA should be a LOS, or should be a non event?
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Old 16th Oct 2014, 09:32
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Creampuff, thanks that is funny. To the death? I don't think so, too much Super to chew through first.

NB, you continue to reinforce my point, I think.
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