Spinning practice in a Cessna 172
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Spinning practice in a Cessna 172
There is a flying school in Victoria that teaches spinning as part of an instructors course and uses a Cessna 172 for that purpose. While competency at spinning instruction should (IMHO) be part of a flying instructor course I doubt if it is a requirement of the CASA approved instructor course syllabus. Aircraft such as the Cessna 150 aerobat, and Decathlon are commonly used for spinning instruction. But is the Cessna 172 series certified for spinning other than an incipient spin only? The danger of spinning an aircraft not certified for spinning should be obvious to any instructor - with a worst case scenario of the next pilot to fly the aircraft faced with unexpected structural failure. Or is that being too dramatic?
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I think you will find that the C-172 is certified for spinning if operated in the "Utility" category and the C of A states the aircraft is approved for operations in the Utility category.
But is the Cessna 172 series certified for spinning other than an incipient spin only?
Not something I would recommend in an old 172 ...
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Hi Judd,
I learned to fly in gliders and before first solo a student had to be able to enter and recover from a fully developed spin. Then again GFA always had a higher standard than CAA/CASA.
A risk exists in mishandling the recovery in Utility category aircraft, especially old ones. IMHO, a risk of over stress exists and I would be pretty uncomfortable flying in such an aircraft.
Personally, I don't think that CPL should be issued without spin certification. If you are scared of a spin, you shouldn't be flying. There are plenty of aircraft around which are built for the g-loads that can be encountered during a botched recovery. A C172 isn't one of them.
I learned to fly in gliders and before first solo a student had to be able to enter and recover from a fully developed spin. Then again GFA always had a higher standard than CAA/CASA.
A risk exists in mishandling the recovery in Utility category aircraft, especially old ones. IMHO, a risk of over stress exists and I would be pretty uncomfortable flying in such an aircraft.
Personally, I don't think that CPL should be issued without spin certification. If you are scared of a spin, you shouldn't be flying. There are plenty of aircraft around which are built for the g-loads that can be encountered during a botched recovery. A C172 isn't one of them.
Under the Part 61 regs a spinning activity endorsement is a prerequisite for a grade 3 training endorsement (aeroplanes). See table 61.1235.
As mentioned earlier, it depends on the individual aircraft's c of a and flight manual as to whether you can spin the aircraft. The C172 isn't a good aircraft for spin training, C150/152 , Robin, Citabria/Decathlon are all ok. If you want a text book spin recovery aeroplane you can't go past the DeHavilland Chipmunk. The Chippy will not recover unless you do all of the proper things.
As mentioned earlier, it depends on the individual aircraft's c of a and flight manual as to whether you can spin the aircraft. The C172 isn't a good aircraft for spin training, C150/152 , Robin, Citabria/Decathlon are all ok. If you want a text book spin recovery aeroplane you can't go past the DeHavilland Chipmunk. The Chippy will not recover unless you do all of the proper things.
I've flown the A,D, M and N models of 172. All were certified for spinning when the aircraft was operated in the utility category. (As a reminder, that's +4.4G, -1.7)
I've spun one of them a few times, as part of a BFR. (Dual.)
Not what I'd call a great spin trainer, simply because it needs coaxing into the spin (at the stall insert full rudder, and the gentle old girl goes "oh, really?...well, ok... if I must,) and it needs full aft to hold it into the spin, unless a bit of power is maintained.
I can imagine botched recoveries in some aircraft. The 172 isn't one of them. You'd have to be rather ham-fisted. I mean, to the degree that's it's an insult to all ham.
Pretty much the moment the aft pressure is started to be relaxed, the aircraft is very obviously flying again normally. A gentle pull out from the dive can generally be achieved without exceeding about 2G. Probably less.
I've spun one of them a few times, as part of a BFR. (Dual.)
Not what I'd call a great spin trainer, simply because it needs coaxing into the spin (at the stall insert full rudder, and the gentle old girl goes "oh, really?...well, ok... if I must,) and it needs full aft to hold it into the spin, unless a bit of power is maintained.
I can imagine botched recoveries in some aircraft. The 172 isn't one of them. You'd have to be rather ham-fisted. I mean, to the degree that's it's an insult to all ham.
Pretty much the moment the aft pressure is started to be relaxed, the aircraft is very obviously flying again normally. A gentle pull out from the dive can generally be achieved without exceeding about 2G. Probably less.
In New Zealand it's a requirement to have 1 hour (not all in one lesson) of spin recovery training signed off in your logbook for the issue of a C category (Grade 3 to you guys in the West Island 
) instructor rating. I don't know about the requirements in Oz.
The C172's I flew were all approved for spinning in the utility category.
For one instructor I trained we started out in a C172 but it was so useless at spinning we had to change to another type. From memory it needed pro spin aileron to stay in the spin as soon as the aileron was centralised the spin stopped.
Many C172's will enter the incipient spin with flap deployed, spinning is forbidden with flap deployed, though I suspect some do spin them with flap. In fact if I recall correctly Utility Category requires clean configuration, i.e. No flap.
While the C172 is approved for spinning, in my opinion it isn't a suitable aircraft to teach spin recovery training.
The C150/2 was a different kettle of fish. Used to enjoy spinning out of a steep turn in them, both over the top and underneath. A lot of fun and it was a very good way to teach the recovery process as the most likely time other than a botched stall recovery for a spin was in an out of balance steep turn.
) instructor rating. I don't know about the requirements in Oz.The C172's I flew were all approved for spinning in the utility category.
For one instructor I trained we started out in a C172 but it was so useless at spinning we had to change to another type. From memory it needed pro spin aileron to stay in the spin as soon as the aileron was centralised the spin stopped.
Many C172's will enter the incipient spin with flap deployed, spinning is forbidden with flap deployed, though I suspect some do spin them with flap. In fact if I recall correctly Utility Category requires clean configuration, i.e. No flap.
While the C172 is approved for spinning, in my opinion it isn't a suitable aircraft to teach spin recovery training.
The C150/2 was a different kettle of fish. Used to enjoy spinning out of a steep turn in them, both over the top and underneath. A lot of fun and it was a very good way to teach the recovery process as the most likely time other than a botched stall recovery for a spin was in an out of balance steep turn.
Tarq 57, your comments are fine for an experienced pilot but try it with a student often enough and you will see a botched recovery. Not a good spin trainer for sure, but plenty strong enough. Who ever heard of a 172 breaking up in flight? It would be a rare occurrence indeed.
27/09 if you can't get a 172 to spin easily you are using the wrong technique. Try with a bit of power next time. No aileron needed.
BTW I don't recommend spin training in them at all because a botched recovery will see VNE arrive quite quickly, especially if the power is left on. As others have said, there are far better aircraft for the job.
27/09 if you can't get a 172 to spin easily you are using the wrong technique. Try with a bit of power next time. No aileron needed.
BTW I don't recommend spin training in them at all because a botched recovery will see VNE arrive quite quickly, especially if the power is left on. As others have said, there are far better aircraft for the job.
Spinning in a C172?..... absolutely stupid thing to do...
Tarq 57, your comments are fine for an experienced pilot but try it with a student often enough and you will see a botched recovery. Not a good spin trainer for sure, but plenty strong enough. Who ever heard of a 172 breaking up in flight? It would be a rare occurrence indeed.....
Never heard of a 172 breaking up in flight. I think they're probably a lot stronger than most people imagine.
27/09 if you can't get a 172 to spin easily you are using the wrong technique. Try with a bit of power next time. No aileron needed.
As others have said... there are better aircraft for the purpose... and with sids and ageing aircraft in general.... a stupid thing to do... it's all about risk management... if you don't need to do it.. then don't... simple...
Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
Not a very convincing spin trainer either ... and simply letting go of the controls, it would recover to a dive instantly
EAA - In the Loop - The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
I agree with the comments regarding the 172 being reluctant to spin, but remember this is 2 up and in the utility category. The CofG is well forward, people do spin them into the ground, usually with the CofG further aft (pax, bags etc) high power and crossed controls. If you're serious about teaching instructors / trainee pilots about spin awareness I'd recommend an aircraft certified in the aerobatic category and a spin entry with a fair amount of power, skidding and aileron to hold of bank. The Citabria does this extremely well. The classic power off, boot in rudder at the point of stall entry can be recovered at any point with minimal height loss. Use the climbing turn, rudder into the direction of turn and holding off bank with aileron you will lose at least 500' from the time it "lets go" until recovered. This entry also requires the correct recovery inputs - power off, centralise ailerons, identify the direction of the spin, apply opposite rudder, then progressively ease the stick forward until the rotation stops, then centralise the rudder and recover from the dive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
Not a very convincing spin trainer either ... and simply letting go of the controls, it would recover to a dive instantly
... and I hope you understand that is a GOOD thing.
EAA - In the Loop - The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
Originally Posted by Aussie Bob
Not a very convincing spin trainer either ... and simply letting go of the controls, it would recover to a dive instantly
... and I hope you understand that is a GOOD thing.
EAA - In the Loop - The Hands-off Beggs/Mueller Emergency Spin Recovery Procedure
Letting go for recovery is a good thing, but really doesn't need much 'training'.
If you want to practice spin recovery as a 'life saver' you need to practice fully developed spinning, in an aircraft that requires 'conventional' recovery techniques.
It seems pointless to practice something that requires no skill -' let go and you'll be right son!'
What we need people to practice, is what to do if "letting go" doesn't work. Then they will need to conduct the spin recovery procedure.
It is also import (IMO) to show pilots what spinning looks/feels like, and show them that there is nothing to be frightened of. Identify the spin, recover!
