MERGED: Tyabb Incident 27-04-14
Join Date: Feb 2006
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I base my comments on watching them operate at numerous strips with disregard to all.
Tyabb practically has Darren Barnfield living on-site, so you have your own club covered. Whilst he may be the RAA technical manager, he certainly holds clout within the organisation and can make the appropriate noises. Same with Mick Poole, he's frequently at Tyabb and can take appropriate action and I know he will follow up such reports and ensure that they are followed through.
Don't be afraid to alert poor behaviour on the radio, like those stupid trike maximum rate climbing intersection departures that they often do. (note that this has nothing to do with this incident afaik) There's nothing more embarrasing than being told off via the VHF - it will have lasting behavioural effects. We recently had a couple of trikes visit my airport and ask to put their aircraft in our hangar as it was gusty; I obliged and the pilot taxiied over, right over and inside the hangar, then shut down. I didn't hesitate to advise the pilot that it is not appropriate etiquette to taxi into the hangar and he replied that it's what they do at their airport. That one conversation may one day save some serious damage to a person or aircraft.
If people choose to fly trikes and other ultra lights with no crash absorbing qualities then I don't think it should be at Tyabb where, given that as soon as it goes wrong, it's likely to go seriously wrong, a serious incident is assured.
The first and only air crash I have seen involved a trike and since that day I have never seen one operated to standards I remotely consider responsible.
They seem to attract people with the jet ski mentality - pure exhibitionism. Slow. low and noisy, endlessly turning over population centres wanting to be watched. They always flout the 500 ft and 1000ft rules.
Ban the bloody things.
They seem to attract people with the jet ski mentality - pure exhibitionism. Slow. low and noisy, endlessly turning over population centres wanting to be watched. They always flout the 500 ft and 1000ft rules.
Ban the bloody things.
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They always flout the 500 ft and 1000ft rules.
Ban the bloody things.
Ban the bloody things.
Take my advice, pick up your phone and make calls when you see it happening. If they are as low as you say they are, their rego's should be easily visible. It only takes a phone followed by a caution to put the wind up them, so to speak.
registration invisible and the infractions always happen on weekends outside business hours. Powered parachutes do the same thing. Williamstown is a very busy crossroads and one day a Helo, Tiger moth or a seaplane is going to collect one of these idiots.
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Sunny, you should write to RAA-Aus and HGFA with your concerns and the message will be passed on via the monthly magazines. If you say nothing, nothing will happen. Willy is a class G VFR lane and they are entitled to be there.
News has just reported that this aircraft was fitted with a camera (unknown if operating at the time), it had fuel on board and was running a Rotax 912 80 hp engine, pretty much as bullet-proof as you will get, so it will be interesting to find out why it stopped.
News has just reported that this aircraft was fitted with a camera (unknown if operating at the time), it had fuel on board and was running a Rotax 912 80 hp engine, pretty much as bullet-proof as you will get, so it will be interesting to find out why it stopped.
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We recently had a couple of trikes visit my airport and ask to put their aircraft in our hangar as it was gusty; I obliged and the pilot taxiied over, right over and inside the hangar, then shut down. I didn't hesitate to advise the pilot that it is not appropriate etiquette to taxi into the hangar and he replied that it's what they do at their airport.
While I am on the limit of my aeronautical knowledge here, it appears that weight shifting control cannot cope with zero or negative G and neither can autogyros. This appears to be the source of their vulnerability....
...apart from their cheapness appealing to idiots and losers.
...apart from their cheapness appealing to idiots and losers.
I asked myself, would I risk the life of my little girl...NO BLOODY WAY!
Why would this poor fellow be any different. Something has happened outside his control...imagine what was going through his mind in those last seconds...bet it wasn't about his own safety.
Regardless if his actions get the Monday expert treatment.
Why would this poor fellow be any different. Something has happened outside his control...imagine what was going through his mind in those last seconds...bet it wasn't about his own safety.
Regardless if his actions get the Monday expert treatment.
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Cheapness? A good trike pushes the $80k mark and are very well engineered. Idiots and losers? That's a bit harsh there Sunfish given what has just happened. If I'm not mistaken your home-built aircraft runs the same engine type and probably cost less. The majority of trikes are also factory built versus your garage built bug smasher built by someone with limited aeronautical knowledge by admission ...
XXX, the trikes I have seen being trailed around this country are a disgrace by marine, let alone aviation standards. Same with the autogyros and parachutes. I've seen.
They seem to attract the "thrill seeker" element with which I am quite familiar. These are folk who ignore the century of aeronautical experience, bought with so many lives, in favour of the latest fad.
Autogyros cannot cope with negative G. Neither can single surface aerofoils as far as I know.
Furthermore, i stand by my comment that I have never seen these used responsibly as in getting from A to B. They always appear above built up areas and places like beaches, where they proceed to show off - until they crash.
I will let the comment on my build go except to say its designed to be built by ham handed, butter fingered idiots like me and produce a (relatively) safe result, and in any case I try to adhere to Boeing practices and am a far worse critic of my own efforts than anyone else could ever be.
Get rid of the barn stormers in trikes and paragliders.
They seem to attract the "thrill seeker" element with which I am quite familiar. These are folk who ignore the century of aeronautical experience, bought with so many lives, in favour of the latest fad.
Autogyros cannot cope with negative G. Neither can single surface aerofoils as far as I know.
Furthermore, i stand by my comment that I have never seen these used responsibly as in getting from A to B. They always appear above built up areas and places like beaches, where they proceed to show off - until they crash.
I will let the comment on my build go except to say its designed to be built by ham handed, butter fingered idiots like me and produce a (relatively) safe result, and in any case I try to adhere to Boeing practices and am a far worse critic of my own efforts than anyone else could ever be.
Get rid of the barn stormers in trikes and paragliders.
I think it's accepted to some degree that these light weight flying machines can attract the more 'cowboy' element probably due the very nature that they are 'considered' cheaper & easier to fly/operate, that's the expectation of a lot of these operators I Imagine.
Trouble is the pilot in this sad event by all accounts was most likely responsible judging by him being well known in certain circles but what's disturbing is the young child here being involved as I mentioned in an earlier post, taking her may very well be the biggest issue here. I'd like to think that if nothing else comes out of the tragic event that there be an age limit for pax just like there would be on motorcycles as pillions, both have little to no protection in an accident sequence.
I've been in trike once some years ago, scared the crap out of me thinking sheez even a slow speed event at ground level & I could be toast!
Obviously all personal choice but the child? There's the utter sadness here, hope she pulls thru quickly but she is now left without a father
.
Wmk2
Trouble is the pilot in this sad event by all accounts was most likely responsible judging by him being well known in certain circles but what's disturbing is the young child here being involved as I mentioned in an earlier post, taking her may very well be the biggest issue here. I'd like to think that if nothing else comes out of the tragic event that there be an age limit for pax just like there would be on motorcycles as pillions, both have little to no protection in an accident sequence.
I've been in trike once some years ago, scared the crap out of me thinking sheez even a slow speed event at ground level & I could be toast!
Obviously all personal choice but the child? There's the utter sadness here, hope she pulls thru quickly but she is now left without a father
.Wmk2
The pilot of this ultralight had his licence for only months. You can draw your own training conclusions about this. Tyabb has gone down the wrong road with ultralights and it will be the beginning of the end. I will give the airfield 5 years.
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1asoundasleep, Months you say... Since last August actually, so about 8 months. What about the fact that they were also a PPL holder?
Not disagreeing with you, just balancing a one-sided argument.
Not disagreeing with you, just balancing a one-sided argument.
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Tyabb(PAC) does not conduct any weight shift type training. In fact the only ultralights they have on line are a gazelle and skycatcher. These are both fully enclosed 3 axis control types. Obviously the trike training was conducted elsewhere. In fact I would estimate that ultralight flights of the weight shift variety would make up less than 1% of all movements at Tyabb. Hardly going down hill! With new hangars going up all the time I predict a bright future for Western Port Airfield!
Tyabb has gone down the wrong road with ultralights and it will be the beginning of the end. I will give the airfield 5 years.
An ultralight is just an aircraft. Many have similar weight, power & performance as the J3 cub that I fly. The real problem is the lack of discipline of the sector in Australia.
We have CASA which doesn't understand GA and is strangling it with regulation. CASA seems to be unable to have the flexibility to deal with both private pilots and airlines. The state car registration bodies can do it. AMSA can do it. Overseas aviation regulators (eg the UK CAA) can do it. But CASA has abrogated its responsibility in this area. While GA suffers from too much regulation, the ultralight sector doesn't have enough. They were cast free by CASA and are taking full advantage. Too many ultralight pilots think that normal conventions don't apply to them.
CASA has created this situation that airport's like Tyabb we effectively have different users operating to different rules using the same airport - not the airport.
I'd suggest that CASA's decision to split general aviation according to an arbitrary weight limit means that airports training organisations like Tyabb are forced to mix both traffic to remain viable. You can see this replicated in most country airports. To a degree Tyabb has more incidents because it simply has more aircraft.
But, Tyabb is secure as an airport. Its zoned as an airport and if nothing else, pre-existing use rights will protect it as such. In the last couple of years 8 new hangars have been erected, with another 2 about to commence. A fourth aviation maintenance business has opened and the airport is now probably the biggest employment generator in Tyabb. Clearly, the local council and the Victorian dept of planning support its use as an airport.
An airport operator isn't in the business of re-qualifying pilots. That's CASA's job. I'd suggest that a string of ultalight accidents that have a common thread of pilot skill deficiency will put pressure on the licencing authorities, not the airport.
Real estate prices are the biggest killer of airports. I can't think of a single airport which has been closed because of safety concerns (that's CASA's territory), but there is a pretty big list of those closed because the land simply became too valuable and the owners decided to "cash out". Tyabb is surrounded by land zoned "Port Industrial" in waiting for the Hastings port development. The local council doesn't get to rezone this land.
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Too many ultralight pilots think that normal conventions don't apply to them.
CASA has created this situation that airport's like Tyabb we effectively have different users operating to different rules using the same airport - not the airport.
CASA has created this situation that airport's like Tyabb we effectively have different users operating to different rules using the same airport - not the airport.
What appears to be happening right now is that after the RAA copped a caining from CASA after audit recent failures, the RAA has stepped up a notch with their technical and operations personnel and actually started to enforce the CAO's. Every month in the RAA we magazine we are seeing a range of "new" regulations that now apply to RAA aircraft. In fact they are not "new," they have been there forever, but nobody felt that they applied and they were never communicated effectively to the members and not actively enforced.
Some examples I can think of include:
- Instrument 8 checks
- Transponder AD, the old RAD43/47
- Airservices Noise Certificates
- TSO'ed instruments
- Enforcing no CTA in homebuilts
- Enforcing no flying in military airspace
Now RAA have an online course for maintenance privelages which used to be given automatically to an owner and there's also talk of 100 hourlies.
The result of these perceived changes I believe has caused literally droves of members to leave RAA of late and or sell their aircraft and from what I can tell, there will be more. RAA's Temora gathering over Easter had 100-110 aircraft there on the Easter Saturday. Prior years have seen in excess of 500 on the same day.
Watch this space, it's not over yet.
I think you'll find that we will start to see a much greater compliance in terms of maintenance and flying and those that won't comply, will look elsewhere for their jetski fix.
Just because pilots are leaving RAAus, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean they have ceased flying. Similarly, aircraft previously registered under RAAus, but with lapsed currency, have not necessarily stopped flying. It appears that many aircraft and pilots have chosen to fly without currency or registration, ie, as happens with motor vehicles.
RAAus Operations have limited capacity to surveil their members and aircraft. CASA contributes around $100,000 pa toward the entire administration of this sector. It just can't be done! It would really cost CASA 10x this to do the job themselves - and that may not be so far off!
Pinging a few of the cowboys would have a salutary effect on the remainder, and it would allow the 98% responsible pilots to get on and enjoy their hobby. Only CASA can achieve this - unless they delegate real powers to the RAAO's. It wouldn't be popular in some quarters, but most would welcome it.
happy days,
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- unless they delegate real powers to the RAAO's.
Won't work.
Don't the 98% have a responsibility to themselves to educate the 2% as best they can so they can all get on and (continue to) enjoy their hobby? Leaving things for the government to fix up more often than not results in "sub-optimal" outcomes...