Do we mumble on the radio in Oz?
How about we stick to the standard distance/bearing/altitude.
If a pilot doesn't know that the 260 radial is in the general direction of 'West', and how far a mile or 26 is, then we have bigger problems at play here. If the the Trike pilot (or anyone else) who can't 'mentally draw' a position in their head (without the need for a ruler and paper) needs more info, then how about using the novel idea of asking for clarification.
The default should be the proven standard. Everyone SHOULD be able to work out distance/bearing. If they can't, then spend some time at home practicing!
How dumb do we need to make aviation? A little study and 'hard work' in preparing for flight never hurt anyone.
If a pilot doesn't know that the 260 radial is in the general direction of 'West', and how far a mile or 26 is, then we have bigger problems at play here. If the the Trike pilot (or anyone else) who can't 'mentally draw' a position in their head (without the need for a ruler and paper) needs more info, then how about using the novel idea of asking for clarification.
The default should be the proven standard. Everyone SHOULD be able to work out distance/bearing. If they can't, then spend some time at home practicing!
How dumb do we need to make aviation? A little study and 'hard work' in preparing for flight never hurt anyone.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
allthecoolnamesarego, very well said mate!
Here is a classic example of why a radial is a bad idea.... McGrath50 has just turned it around (be it by accident or just for the purposes of the conversation) and used the term "on the 260 bearing." Is the high speed PC9 on a 260 bearing, heading west, or is he inbound on the 260 radial?
Is "10 miles to the west of East Sale on the 260 bearing" acceptable? Gives the trike driver a vague idea (the west) and anyone a bit more concerned about accuracy my exact location.
Because of the context mate. If it was in an inbound report or preceded by the words "inbound on the.... " That would give it away...
Your mate in his trike needs to build a better SA picture...
Your mate in his trike needs to build a better SA picture...
Last edited by Username here; 8th Apr 2014 at 03:37.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless things have changed, they don't teach radials in the RA-Aus or HGFA syllabus.
Position reporting should be given reference a known point such as a navaid or airport, not some obscure local landmark. I would have though that radials and bearings would be fundamental knowledge for anybody flying a craft in the sky, the concepts aren't overly difficult.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Running up that hill
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GreatthreadIdon'tthinkit'sveryonebutwesuredohaveafewwhomumbl eontheradionottomentiontheoneswhorunonwithonebiglongsentence thankGodtheyarenotATC's!!
I'd probably have to cop a guilty ole on mispronouncing place names too. I'd been rated in my current position for six months before I realised BIU doesn't have a 'j' in it
In defence, some of our 5 letter positions seem to come pre slurred, BADJA, RANGR, HAMTN, HARMN etc
Originally Posted by NB
Breaking up transmissions into easily digested chunks is now the way to go.
Originally Posted by NB
I'd been rated in my current position for six months before I realised BIU doesn't have a 'j' in it
Try going there and saying to the locals "I quite like Ballidoo".
And it's not PinJELLY either!
I know the purists would protest, but the concept of radials, VOR/NDB or not, reduces the confusion arising from bearing to/from/inbound/outbound calls. I have resorted to "Are you southwest or sortheast of Broome?" when trying to work out where someone actually is.
I think it is important that we keep things as standard as possible. Sure people will add little bits here and there when not necessary....
ENR 1.1-46 gives a summary of broadcasts.
It clearly states that:
Broadcast must include: location, aircraft type, call sign, position/intention, location.
So I would assume (never assume....) that the Roulettes would have said something like:
"Traffic East Sale, Roulttes, a formation of 7 PC9's, on the 260 radial at 26 nm, 5000'. Inbound, estimating the circuit time 25. East Sale"
This clearly means they are out to the West and heading TOWARDS East Sale.
Bearing/radial definitions are really not important in this context.
ENR 1.1-46 gives a summary of broadcasts.
It clearly states that:
Broadcast must include: location, aircraft type, call sign, position/intention, location.
So I would assume (never assume....) that the Roulettes would have said something like:
"Traffic East Sale, Roulttes, a formation of 7 PC9's, on the 260 radial at 26 nm, 5000'. Inbound, estimating the circuit time 25. East Sale"
This clearly means they are out to the West and heading TOWARDS East Sale.
Bearing/radial definitions are really not important in this context.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: world capital of the world
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Indian controllers can be almost impossible to understand. They tend to speak at Mach 1."
I wish ATC at GUAM would speak that slowly. Ever tried to copy a clearance from them ................ delivered at the speed of light!!!!
I wish ATC at GUAM would speak that slowly. Ever tried to copy a clearance from them ................ delivered at the speed of light!!!!
Some of you must fly in different Ozzie airspace from me!
Very occasional ATC who wants to show how fast he can talk, and the odd hotshot who drawls slow and deep cause they think it sounds cool, but the vast majority of calls I hear are concise and professional.
OK. so I am discounting old mate in the Jabiru who blocks the airwaves for 5 minutes telling the whole world that he is somewhere, doing something!
Dr
Very occasional ATC who wants to show how fast he can talk, and the odd hotshot who drawls slow and deep cause they think it sounds cool, but the vast majority of calls I hear are concise and professional.
OK. so I am discounting old mate in the Jabiru who blocks the airwaves for 5 minutes telling the whole world that he is somewhere, doing something!
Dr
Tio540,
You seem to be correct. I recall a few years ago the call was changed to say 'Traffic (location)...'
It appears it is now back to the old way '(location) Traffic'.
I stand corrected and will change my R/T format appropriately.
ENR 21.1.13
(Location) traffic
(Aircraft type)
(Callsign)
(Position/intention)
(Location)
You seem to be correct. I recall a few years ago the call was changed to say 'Traffic (location)...'
It appears it is now back to the old way '(location) Traffic'.
I stand corrected and will change my R/T format appropriately.
ENR 21.1.13
(Location) traffic
(Aircraft type)
(Callsign)
(Position/intention)
(Location)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The periodic change in recommended broadcast format is a prime example of the nonsense we put up with. I include all the required info in calls but I've been using 'Traffic XXX, .... XXX" for years and don't propose to change. Over the past 30 years, I've been in fashion, out of fashion, .... One reason I prefer my adopted format is that some comms systems clip the start of the transmission and having 'traffic' as the first word gets the listener a double shot at hearing clearly the location referenced.
Things do need to change from time to time and I don't have an issue with that when a change in message content is needed. But the endless fanging around with trivia....Geez.
Things do need to change from time to time and I don't have an issue with that when a change in message content is needed. But the endless fanging around with trivia....Geez.
Tecman and Tankie,
I agree completely. From memory, the change to 'Traffic....' Was for the very reason you say, so as to get the name of the airfield should the first part of the Tx be cut off.
I wish 'they' would settle on one format and leave it be!
I agree completely. From memory, the change to 'Traffic....' Was for the very reason you say, so as to get the name of the airfield should the first part of the Tx be cut off.
I wish 'they' would settle on one format and leave it be!
Perhaps that is why the location is said again at the end of the transmission?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Running up that hill
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought the same when they moved the call sign to the end of read backs.
"...ntas123 one zero thousand" verses "... ero thousand Qantas123"
Plus it just seemed more logical to me to hear the call sign - check you have the right aircraft label, then hear level - check CFL in label and 'tick' it. Nowadays its hear level - check CFL in label but do nothing with it, hear call sign - check its the right label and then 'tick' CFL. (That could be just me though.)
"...ntas123 one zero thousand" verses "... ero thousand Qantas123"
Plus it just seemed more logical to me to hear the call sign - check you have the right aircraft label, then hear level - check CFL in label and 'tick' it. Nowadays its hear level - check CFL in label but do nothing with it, hear call sign - check its the right label and then 'tick' CFL. (That could be just me though.)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BackofBourke
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First, I will confess to being pedantic.
The radio call was never "Traffic Bendigo..." in the 30 years I have read the AIP.
It was once, "All stations Bendigo..", then was changed to "Bendigo traffic...".
No doubt it will be changed again some day.
I encourage juniors to maintain standard phraseology, to their dismay, if only to make life easier when they jump into a shiny big jet. Silly me!
The radio call was never "Traffic Bendigo..." in the 30 years I have read the AIP.
It was once, "All stations Bendigo..", then was changed to "Bendigo traffic...".
No doubt it will be changed again some day.
I encourage juniors to maintain standard phraseology, to their dismay, if only to make life easier when they jump into a shiny big jet. Silly me!