Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Flight school not returning Logbook! Please HELP!

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Flight school not returning Logbook! Please HELP!

Old 13th Mar 2014, 08:26
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 4
Unhappy Flight school not returning Logbook! Please HELP!

Good day folks,

After having issues with my previous flight school, I have now moved to another flight school and have asked for my files to be transferred and my logbook returned back. However, the Flight school is reluctant to give any of them back. I made a request to CASA and after having to wait for 2 months, they came out that they cannot help me to retrieve neither my file nor my logbook. I have around half the amount of hours for a CPL and this means a lot to me. I now do not know what to do or who to ask for help. If i don't obtain at least my logbook, i will be having to do my hours back from the scratch due to no proof. Please Help me anyone with a solution as it is a pity to hear CASA cannot themselves follow their own law as stated in the CAR 5.51

Last edited by blackboxpeal; 13th Mar 2014 at 11:32.
blackboxpeal is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 10:00
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 25
Advise them if they don't return your log book you will have them charged with theft, Go to the school in person to collect them, if they refuse advise the police. its personal property and stored on site to make life easy only (ie you wont forget to bring it) exam passes\fails should be logged with casa so you can get the proof from them.
Black_Knight is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 10:02
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Oz
Posts: 243
Yup, The log book is yours. You paid for it.
Andy_P is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 10:07
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 3,049
i have had a few students with this issue, old schools refuse to hand over the students log book, the logbook is your property, and a legal document, and their refusing to hand it over is theft. remind the school in question politely, that it is your documentation, and legally yours, and not handing it over amounts to theft, in which case, police will be called. they usually hand it over pretty quick.
Ultralights is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 10:16
  #5 (permalink)  
tmpffisch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Name and shame....
 
Old 13th Mar 2014, 10:46
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 712
CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 72

Basic definition of theft
(1) A person steals if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

(2) A person who steals is guilty of theft; and "thief" shall be construed accordingly.

Each of the points of proof must be satisfied in order to obtain a conviction for theft. The most difficult will be "dishonestly" because the logbook was arguably appropriated with your consent.

Try the theft approach and make a statement to police if unsuccessful, but you may have to take a civil case to the Magistrates' or District Court in detinue which is otherwise known as trespass to goods.

Moral...don't leave your property with the School regardless of how helpful they are.

Kaz
kaz3g is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 10:52
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 3,049
Name and shame...
lets just say, 2 schools in question no longer exists.
Ultralights is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 11:18
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 2,346
Basic definition of theft
(1) A person steals if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

(2) A person who steals is guilty of theft; and "thief" shall be construed accordingly.

Each of the points of proof must be satisfied in order to obtain a conviction for theft. The most difficult will be "dishonestly" because the logbook was arguably appropriated with your consent.
kaz3g,

The property was not appropriated - it was bailed into the flying school's custody for a specific reason.

It was never in the owner's contemplation that the book would become the property of the flying school, and I am sure there is evidence of payment by the owner to purchase the logbook.

For the flying school to attempt to retain posession of the logbook beyond the licence granted them by the logbook's owner is (if I remember correctly) "Conversion".
Horatio Leafblower is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 11:22
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 4
Thank you for your replies guys, i appreciate all your help. I have been to the flight school many times and have requested it more than 50 times. Being an international student, i would be honest that i have been fooled on various occasions when i was physically present at their facility for the request of my logbook. Some of their famous words were, "we are not allowed to give a student's logbook until they finish, and you have not finished your course."
That was their excuse all the time, and i would leave there thinking they were right. However i did some deep research, even found light from CASA telling me that according to the CAR 5.51, i should be in possession. However, today CASA mailed me back with the opposite saying that sorry, they cannot help me further and i have to sort it out myself. I am writing the flight school a letter now and stating the theft policy. just for name and shame, its EDITED BY MOD at jandakot airport. very cheap people to be honest and VERY VERY money minded. be aware.

Will keep you updated.. i just need support. thank you all
blackboxpeal is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 11:28
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Age: 35
Posts: 84
Try the theft approach and make a statement to police if unsuccessful, but you may have to take a civil case to the Magistrates' or District Court in detinue which is otherwise known as trespass to goods.
First year of law school?
ButFli is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 11:39
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,882
ButFli - First year of law school?
FYI ButFli - Kaz is a lawyer You might want to do some research before you make a food of yourself
VH-XXX is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 11:42
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Oz
Posts: 243
Originally Posted by ButFli
First year of law school?
If you have something to contribute ButFli, then do so please. I see your comment as pure trolling.
Andy_P is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 11:57
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Posts: 4,230
The school is in breach of a CAR if it refuses to pass on your training records:

CARs 1988:

5.57 Flying schools: transfer of student records

If:

(a) a person has received flying training at a flying school; and

(b) the person subsequently arranges to receive flying training at another flying school;

the first‑mentioned flying school must, on the written or oral request of the person or the other flying school, give a copy of the personís student record to the other flying school.
Tinstaafl is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 12:56
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 890
If I wanted my logbook and the school was open for business, I would go in and get it. It is yours; you are entitled to it. So what if it is in the CFI's office? Walk in (when he is not there) and get it. Just don't take anything else, and don't force open locked doors. A fellow student might be able to help you - fetching it for you, even!

If the school is closed, not in business, it is more difficult. But I would exhaust every opportunity to simply walk in and get the logbook from whichever cupboard it is stored in, before talking to a lawyer. As I said, don't take anything else and don't "break in".

Personally, I never gave my logbook to my school as a student, and I do not keep it at my place of work as an employee. Businesses go bust all the time, and it's unlikely the administrators will let people into the building to take paperwork home.

Here's an anecdote, anyhow. In one memorable case at a former employer - a sausage factory - a student took all his records home (not just logbook), and sued the flying school for failure to fulfill the training contract. The school lost, because it had no records with which to prove that it had in fact done what it promised. The school pursued the student for theft of records, which did actually belong to the school, but again couldn't prove that the student actually took them.
Oktas8 is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 14:22
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 243
5.57 Flying schools: transfer of student records
Interestingly there does not seem to be any penalty provision (unless there is a general penalty provision that I couldn't find) for failing to comply with 5.57.

If it was me, I would ask your new CFI to make a written request to the previous school for the log book and records to be transferred.

If that fails, I would be following kaz3g's advice, although the Police would in all likelihood suggest that it is a Civil matter. (However you never know your luck, one may understand your dilemma and make a call on your behalf).

That then leaves the Magistrates Court. The Clerk of Courts would probably provide advice of what Civil action may be available.

Good luck.
Square Bear is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 17:40
  #16 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 4
My new flight school's CFI made a request to the previous flight school Current CFI with a signed letter to ask for the training record and logbook transfer explaining that we will take care of the courier service, but he seems to avoid any replies.
blackboxpeal is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 21:50
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 2,346
Holler for a marshall

I assume you have paid all outstanding monies to your previous school.

A call to CASA will often elicit the response you seek.
Horatio Leafblower is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 23:12
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: earth
Posts: 21
Walk in there and take it, if it's in a place prohibited to the public, just walk in and grab it, there is nothing they can do to stop you, if they try to physically restrain you, that is assault and that person then could face criminal proceedings. You will have done nothing wrong as it is your log book. Take some big scary goon looking friends with you if you can.
mr flappy is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 23:20
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: over the rainbow
Posts: 93
Yep,what Mr.Flappy said particularly the bit about taking a couple of large ,scary looking mates with you,just make sure they understand they're only there for appearances and in the event of someone trying to stop you recovering your property your friends are to keep their hands to themselves and act only as witnesses.
LewC is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2014, 23:56
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 243
Devils advocate here...do you owe them money Blackboxpeal by any chance?
GADRIVR is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.