Flight school now and pay later has to stop
Thread Starter
Flight school now and pay later has to stop
I am hearing more and more now of people who did flight school and an Associates or Bachelors "Degree" at any number of providers who can get the good old Aussie taxpayer to fund it all and they can pay later.
The problem I have is the final bill can be around 80 to 90 thousand Australian dollars. Medical training doesn't cost that much nor does a degree in Engineering or Economics. I'm all for the level playing field and what about the "poor" kids who want to be pilots but to get into Med/Eng/Comm you had to get a very high score for your final HSC exams. The Associate Degree with a CPL only requires an ATAR of 52.55! You could sleep for most of High School and get better than than. Engineering required at least 80 and medicine in the high 90's. If you want to be a pilot and can score over 90 for your Uni entrance exams be my guest to the Govt purse, you have earned it! If you can barely make it over 50 maybe you should think about other career paths as you clearly had problems staying awake during school.
I can also say that a Med/Eng/Comm graduate has a much better chance of finding a job in their field than a 200 hour CPL with a useless bit of Uni paper.
We had a shortage of CPL holders in 2006 for about 5 minutes so why is it that 7 years later we are still letting people put flight training on the Govt purse when there is clearly no need for it??
Greedy Uni's maybe?
The problem I have is the final bill can be around 80 to 90 thousand Australian dollars. Medical training doesn't cost that much nor does a degree in Engineering or Economics. I'm all for the level playing field and what about the "poor" kids who want to be pilots but to get into Med/Eng/Comm you had to get a very high score for your final HSC exams. The Associate Degree with a CPL only requires an ATAR of 52.55! You could sleep for most of High School and get better than than. Engineering required at least 80 and medicine in the high 90's. If you want to be a pilot and can score over 90 for your Uni entrance exams be my guest to the Govt purse, you have earned it! If you can barely make it over 50 maybe you should think about other career paths as you clearly had problems staying awake during school.
I can also say that a Med/Eng/Comm graduate has a much better chance of finding a job in their field than a 200 hour CPL with a useless bit of Uni paper.
We had a shortage of CPL holders in 2006 for about 5 minutes so why is it that 7 years later we are still letting people put flight training on the Govt purse when there is clearly no need for it??
Greedy Uni's maybe?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Every AOC holder regularly experiences a shortage of [qualified, experienced, competent and motivated] pilots.
They say this to flying schools and MPs.
Flying schools then say to wannabees that "there is a shortage of [....] pilots!"
MPs make decisions based on a shortage of [....] pilots!
So there is a ready supply of students attracting the regular flow of taxpayer funding, all to satisfy the demand for [....] pilots.
The text [between the brackets] seems to get left out, somehow.
'Twas ever thus.
They say this to flying schools and MPs.
Flying schools then say to wannabees that "there is a shortage of [....] pilots!"
MPs make decisions based on a shortage of [....] pilots!
So there is a ready supply of students attracting the regular flow of taxpayer funding, all to satisfy the demand for [....] pilots.
The text [between the brackets] seems to get left out, somehow.
'Twas ever thus.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 43
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATARs are not based on academic strength, they are a ranking - they are a reflection of the lowest score that was able to get into the course. So an ATAR of 52.5 is not a reflection of the qualities of the candidates, its a reflection of the demand - there could have been 200 above 70, but if the last 50 are in the low 50s and the lowest is 52.5, that is what the course entry becomes. The 95+ for medicine is purely demand of students who have been whipped since birth to become a doctor. Myself I got a TER of 76.2 but still got into an engineering course with an entry of 90 - don't ask me how that worked, but they took me. Most unis will inflate their entries in order to have prestige and attract better applicants.
I don't see anything wrong with a degree based aviation course as long as the flying component is fairly charged and not massively inflated because the students are locked into it. HECS (or whatever it is now) is a great way to get educated and pay it off later out of your taxes when you start earning.
And I would wager most medicine courses now are in the order of $150k and engineering $100-120k and climbing - no thanks to Unis preferring to take full fee paying overseas students who will pay above and beyond for a place, rather than the just enough HECS placements.
I don't see anything wrong with a degree based aviation course as long as the flying component is fairly charged and not massively inflated because the students are locked into it. HECS (or whatever it is now) is a great way to get educated and pay it off later out of your taxes when you start earning.
And I would wager most medicine courses now are in the order of $150k and engineering $100-120k and climbing - no thanks to Unis preferring to take full fee paying overseas students who will pay above and beyond for a place, rather than the just enough HECS placements.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: YMMB
Age: 58
Posts: 703
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The world has changed. Tiger Moths are no longer a popular primary trainer, Avgas no longer costs 20 Pence a gallon and CFIs are no longer former Lancaster pilots. Alas, the regular Ppruners never change.
The integrated Uni flying courses are here to stay. I've seen some pretty average people come out of these courses, but also some very impressive pilots.
Large, quality and systems focused, employers probably like uni graduates who have more of a known and homogenised product. Ideally a uni degree will give the graduate additional analytical and communications skills that could give them a broader role than just flying a plane.
Having a degree may be a good insurance policy for the pilot too, giving them a step up the academic ladder in case a future career change is necessary.
One reason for low ENTER scores in some aviation courses is that that take a lot of direct-entry students. I've seen a few mature-age airline LAMEs in these courses who want a pilot career.
A couple of years ago I did some training with an excellent G3 instructor who was a freshly minted Oxford/Swinburne graduate. Turned out he had a near perfect ENTER score and could have done Medicine but wanted to be a pilot.
The integrated Uni flying courses are here to stay. I've seen some pretty average people come out of these courses, but also some very impressive pilots.
Large, quality and systems focused, employers probably like uni graduates who have more of a known and homogenised product. Ideally a uni degree will give the graduate additional analytical and communications skills that could give them a broader role than just flying a plane.
Having a degree may be a good insurance policy for the pilot too, giving them a step up the academic ladder in case a future career change is necessary.
One reason for low ENTER scores in some aviation courses is that that take a lot of direct-entry students. I've seen a few mature-age airline LAMEs in these courses who want a pilot career.
A couple of years ago I did some training with an excellent G3 instructor who was a freshly minted Oxford/Swinburne graduate. Turned out he had a near perfect ENTER score and could have done Medicine but wanted to be a pilot.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: YMML
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the end of the day the Fee-Help Loan will get re-payed to the Government whether the student chooses to continue in flying or takes on another profession as deductions are made from their income via the tax system. If anything the government would be making a profit from this scheme as the debt is not only indexed with inflation but multiplied by 20%, a nice little top up to the tax payers purse.
It's an interesting proposition Pilotchute, to increase the ATAR for a student to attain a Commonwealth Supported Place (read Fee Help) in a flying course, but is the playing field really equal when it comes to achieving a decent ATAR in Year 12? A lot of it depends on your socio-economic background and what school your parents can afford to send you too. Those that go to a well off Private School are more likely to achieve this increased ATAR while those that don't come from such privileged backgrounds, those that need access to Fee-Help the most, are less likely to be able to attain a Fee-Help place.
Another interesting point unintentionally raised is the issue of an ATAR being an indicator of the ability to fly an aircraft. I have a number of friends studying Medicine (Course cost is $180,000 by the way, which is standard) who achieved ATAR's of 99+ and they commented when taken flying how they could never be a pilot because they just don't have the hand eye coordination needed.
However, I certainly agree with you Pilotchute on the point that some Universities sell Fee-Help as free money, which it certainly is not.
Checked & Set.
It's an interesting proposition Pilotchute, to increase the ATAR for a student to attain a Commonwealth Supported Place (read Fee Help) in a flying course, but is the playing field really equal when it comes to achieving a decent ATAR in Year 12? A lot of it depends on your socio-economic background and what school your parents can afford to send you too. Those that go to a well off Private School are more likely to achieve this increased ATAR while those that don't come from such privileged backgrounds, those that need access to Fee-Help the most, are less likely to be able to attain a Fee-Help place.
Another interesting point unintentionally raised is the issue of an ATAR being an indicator of the ability to fly an aircraft. I have a number of friends studying Medicine (Course cost is $180,000 by the way, which is standard) who achieved ATAR's of 99+ and they commented when taken flying how they could never be a pilot because they just don't have the hand eye coordination needed.
However, I certainly agree with you Pilotchute on the point that some Universities sell Fee-Help as free money, which it certainly is not.
Checked & Set.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Straya
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who has recently started their aviation career and didn't finish school that long ago I'm in a position to say what's going on with people my age as I'm seeing it now.
This is what happens for quite a few wannabe pilots of this era:
1) try to find a way to get around having to finish year 12
2) in most cases that doesn't work and they still need to commit to a particular career path
3) pilot courses are often chosen because in most cases there's no ATAR requirement
4) they think they know what they're getting themselves into when they actually don't
5) type something along the lines of "pilots licence" into google and pick one of the first results that comes up, usually one of the flashy institutions such as Swinburne/Oxford at Moorabin.
5) dismiss the huge cost since "we've got fee-help for that", completely neglecting the fact that it all has to be paid back and is not free money
6) finish the course with $100K+ debt
7) reality hits
8) end of aviation career
I've seen it happen so many times lately it's getting out of control.
This is what happens for quite a few wannabe pilots of this era:
1) try to find a way to get around having to finish year 12
2) in most cases that doesn't work and they still need to commit to a particular career path
3) pilot courses are often chosen because in most cases there's no ATAR requirement
4) they think they know what they're getting themselves into when they actually don't
5) type something along the lines of "pilots licence" into google and pick one of the first results that comes up, usually one of the flashy institutions such as Swinburne/Oxford at Moorabin.
5) dismiss the huge cost since "we've got fee-help for that", completely neglecting the fact that it all has to be paid back and is not free money
6) finish the course with $100K+ debt
7) reality hits
8) end of aviation career
I've seen it happen so many times lately it's getting out of control.
Last edited by DancingDog; 24th Feb 2014 at 23:41.
Thread Starter
I know plenty of guys from less than middle class backgrounds who fly heavy metal around. They did what they needed to do. Worked, saved and worked some more to get where they want to be. Some didn't finish school.
You don't need a degree to fly an aircraft that is without a doubt. So why is it to get flight training on the Govt purse you have to do it attached to a degree? Is that to make it sound more of a credible course of study? We cant just give out money to every dreamer who want to fly jets but if we make them turn up to a 2 year corn flakes box degree that makes it ok?
My argument is if you have the brains for a career and can get the score for uni entrance then the money is yours. When you have to mask flight training as a degree and then have a relatively low entrance score which doesn't really exempt anyone then is it really an effective use of tax payers money? If the entrance score was in the 80's as engineering is then you would see who really wants to do it actually enrolling and not a bunch of dreamers.
I believe the Kiwi Govt stopped access to tax payer funds a while ago after they saw what a complete waste of money it was.
You don't need a degree to fly an aircraft that is without a doubt. So why is it to get flight training on the Govt purse you have to do it attached to a degree? Is that to make it sound more of a credible course of study? We cant just give out money to every dreamer who want to fly jets but if we make them turn up to a 2 year corn flakes box degree that makes it ok?
My argument is if you have the brains for a career and can get the score for uni entrance then the money is yours. When you have to mask flight training as a degree and then have a relatively low entrance score which doesn't really exempt anyone then is it really an effective use of tax payers money? If the entrance score was in the 80's as engineering is then you would see who really wants to do it actually enrolling and not a bunch of dreamers.
I believe the Kiwi Govt stopped access to tax payer funds a while ago after they saw what a complete waste of money it was.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 43
Posts: 263
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The entrance score is nothing do do with ability or academic strength - its a reflection of at what point the demand for the course cuts out. If the course was in high demand with high achievers the score would be higher, but it isnt so as long as you have the minimums to get into it (passes in maths, english etc) you can get in. It just so happens the level to do that is around the 50 ATAR but that does not mean the applicants are not educated enough to do the course. In my time at school most people in that 50 band were capable enough - maybe not academically geared though.
The money gets paid back - they could do the degree, hate flying and go be a bank teller - they would still pay it back as soon as they start earning enough. If they are dreamers they pay it back the same as someone who goes on to fly shiny big things.
I think it being a degree is a but if a pull as well, but no more than some tourism degrees are just surfing lessons, or some IT degrees are nothing more than glorified microsoft courses. I think in as far as it is further vocational eduction it should be supported provided it operates like HECS and the money comes back to the taxpayer once they start earning.
It stops no-one taking the working through Coles or Maccas route to pay for the $200-300 an hour they need for 150 hours to get a CPL. As long as the outcome standards are the same, what is the issue? Its money going into aviation and its supporting the industry.
I would argue if you have someone geared to want to be a pilot why shouldnt they get some assistance with the training costs, with conditons. If you remove the degree part it would only cost $30k or so, why can't that be under a HECS/HELP type scheme? Let the work hours be paying for food and rent rather than poverty to pay for increasingly expensive air time.
The money gets paid back - they could do the degree, hate flying and go be a bank teller - they would still pay it back as soon as they start earning enough. If they are dreamers they pay it back the same as someone who goes on to fly shiny big things.
I think it being a degree is a but if a pull as well, but no more than some tourism degrees are just surfing lessons, or some IT degrees are nothing more than glorified microsoft courses. I think in as far as it is further vocational eduction it should be supported provided it operates like HECS and the money comes back to the taxpayer once they start earning.
It stops no-one taking the working through Coles or Maccas route to pay for the $200-300 an hour they need for 150 hours to get a CPL. As long as the outcome standards are the same, what is the issue? Its money going into aviation and its supporting the industry.
I would argue if you have someone geared to want to be a pilot why shouldnt they get some assistance with the training costs, with conditons. If you remove the degree part it would only cost $30k or so, why can't that be under a HECS/HELP type scheme? Let the work hours be paying for food and rent rather than poverty to pay for increasingly expensive air time.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can also say that a Med/Eng/Comm graduate has a much better chance of finding a job in their field than a 200 hour CPL with a useless bit of Uni paper.
However, I do agree in that I can see no reason why our taxes should be subsidising the flying component of an Aviation degree.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Straya
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
is the playing field really equal when it comes to achieving a decent ATAR in Year 12?
Sure, statistically private schools/those living in Toorak get better results as a group than the others.
However, this is not because year 12 is any easier in those schools but because the majority of the people there tend to be more motivated/driven to succeed.
I did VCE at a public school in the outer suburbs
I scored within the top third of the state and we had a large number of students get ATARs in the 80s and 90s.The subjects are exactly the same, taught the same way, use the same textbooks, sit the same exam and assesed using the same criteria by the same assesors regardless of your school, location, income or parents love life.
My point is it's up to the student to put in the effort if they want to receive high results, and there's no genuine cop-out for not doing so.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
they commented when taken flying how they could never be a pilot because they just don't have the hand eye coordination needed.
Last edited by Tee Emm; 24th Feb 2014 at 12:58.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VET FEE HELP
I heard a rumor that three International Students, one from Malaysia the other two from India (who just qualified for citizenship) recently put all of their advanced training onto FEE-HELP and then left the country once completed. I hope it isn't true and that there are measures in place to not allow this kind of abuse of assistance.
Thread Starter
Lets put it another way.
Bill is a hard working student but he is is from a low income household. Can he get a Govt funded place to do Eng/Comm/Medicine to the tune of over 100k dollars? Yes he can.
Steve isn't a gifted student and also comes from a low income household. Can he have access to the same funding (around 100k) for a CPL? Well at the moment, yes. In the old days he would have had to get a job and save to show his commitment but now its just a free handout from the taxpayer.
For all those saying who cares and the money gets paid back just look at how many fresh CPL holders are out there now. A lot more competing for the same amount of jobs which is very few. Even more people offering to fly for free and wash the bosses car too.
Why do you think there were so many kiwis over here with 250 hours? The local industry was so saturated with wannabees they all came here. The Kiwis stopped doing Govt funded flight training because it was a waste of money and we went ahead and started doing it???
Bill is a hard working student but he is is from a low income household. Can he get a Govt funded place to do Eng/Comm/Medicine to the tune of over 100k dollars? Yes he can.
Steve isn't a gifted student and also comes from a low income household. Can he have access to the same funding (around 100k) for a CPL? Well at the moment, yes. In the old days he would have had to get a job and save to show his commitment but now its just a free handout from the taxpayer.
For all those saying who cares and the money gets paid back just look at how many fresh CPL holders are out there now. A lot more competing for the same amount of jobs which is very few. Even more people offering to fly for free and wash the bosses car too.
Why do you think there were so many kiwis over here with 250 hours? The local industry was so saturated with wannabees they all came here. The Kiwis stopped doing Govt funded flight training because it was a waste of money and we went ahead and started doing it???