Credit of Flight Time - Safety Pilot 737
Once an ATPL has been issued, at the end of the day, ICUS is just another term for co-pilot time.
When going for a job, no employer will consider ICUS time as command time.
When going for a job, no employer will consider ICUS time as command time.
Here we go again, that peculiarly anal Australian approach to logging flight time "The Australian Way", instead of per. ICAO Annex 1.
Command is command.
ICUS is ICUS, it is not co-pilot. ICUS is not command time, it is ICUS.
Co-pilot is co-pilot.
Sensible potential employers are very interested in ICUS (by whatever name) time, because it is a measure of a pilot's time as "pilot flying", as opposed to co-pilot duties.
Many young Australian pilots miss out to other candidate, in the big wide world outside Australia, because their log books do not reflect their actual flying experience.
Tootle pip!!
Originally Posted by Slud
Sensible potential employers are very interested in ICUS (by whatever name) time, because it is a measure of a pilot's time as "pilot flying", as opposed to co-pilot duties.
No F/O in Qantas log command time when the Captain is off, they log ICUS for legs they fly and do all decisions for (according to CRM).
Seems a bit strange in that case. How can the F/O log ICUS when the captain is asleep down the back when there is no one to supervise him? I recall that in the UK anyway, if the captain who is supervising the first officer who claims ICUS, has to disagree with any decision made by the ICUS pilot -including at the flight planning stage - the ICUS pilot is not permitted to log ICUS for the rest of the flight and must revert to logging co-pilot time for the whole flight. Sounds logical.
The whole business of who logs which time is beyond a joke now. There appears to be a stigma against logging of co-pilot time by even the most junior co-pilots who clamour to log ICUS as soon as they lay a hand on the controls or a finger on the heading select button. Surely it is no hardship for the captain to log all his time as captain of the aeroplane and the first and second officers to log co-pilot time regardless of the position of the seat they occupy at various times during a flight. Once a co-pilot commences scheduled command training after his seniority number gets to the top of the list, that is when ICUS is available to him under strict qualifying conditions only.
Seems a bit strange in that case. How can the F/O log ICUS when the captain is asleep down the back when there is no one to supervise him? I recall that in the UK anyway, if the captain who is supervising the first officer who claims ICUS, has to disagree with any decision made by the ICUS pilot -including at the flight planning stage - the ICUS pilot is not permitted to log ICUS for the rest of the flight and must revert to logging co-pilot time for the whole flight. Sounds logical.
The whole business of who logs which time is beyond a joke now. There appears to be a stigma against logging of co-pilot time by even the most junior co-pilots who clamour to log ICUS as soon as they lay a hand on the controls or a finger on the heading select button. Surely it is no hardship for the captain to log all his time as captain of the aeroplane and the first and second officers to log co-pilot time regardless of the position of the seat they occupy at various times during a flight. Once a co-pilot commences scheduled command training after his seniority number gets to the top of the list, that is when ICUS is available to him under strict qualifying conditions only.
Oh so you're suggesting my effos log ICUS when it's their sector?
That all depends on what your"'CASA Accepted" paperwork says your FO can do.
This is the stupidity of the Australian regulations, they are neither ICAO Annex 1 compliant, nor harmonised with most of the rest of the world.
It is young pilots at the beginnings of the career, in the international jobs market, who are disadvantaged, compared with their jobs competitors from just about anywhere else in the world.
Tootle pip!!
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Leadsled I disagree with you!
Why would young Australian pilots be disadvantaged.
Name me one country/airline that disadvantages co-pilots if they do not log ICUS?
Co-pilot time is accepted the same way all over the world.
What are you saying? If a co-pilots logs co-pilot time it means he is PM and if he logs ICUS it means he is PF?
Co-pilots should be ONLY logging co-pilot time because that is there capacity and duty. They are only required to log ICUS for the hours needed for an ATPL issue and if they are on command training. This is the same all over the world and very clear.
The second issue arises with Relief Captain/Cruise Captains/Senior FO's, who are fully qualified as Commanders, and can/could operate as commanders. When the official PIC is off deck having rest, what do they log? It cannot be ICUS as said in an earlier post, as the PIC needs to be there to supervise. So it's either co-pilot time or PIC time for that time when the official PIC is on rest in the bunk!
Why would young Australian pilots be disadvantaged.
Name me one country/airline that disadvantages co-pilots if they do not log ICUS?
Co-pilot time is accepted the same way all over the world.
What are you saying? If a co-pilots logs co-pilot time it means he is PM and if he logs ICUS it means he is PF?
Co-pilots should be ONLY logging co-pilot time because that is there capacity and duty. They are only required to log ICUS for the hours needed for an ATPL issue and if they are on command training. This is the same all over the world and very clear.
The second issue arises with Relief Captain/Cruise Captains/Senior FO's, who are fully qualified as Commanders, and can/could operate as commanders. When the official PIC is off deck having rest, what do they log? It cannot be ICUS as said in an earlier post, as the PIC needs to be there to supervise. So it's either co-pilot time or PIC time for that time when the official PIC is on rest in the bunk!
Airbond, I think Qantas started this ICUS logging of F/Os PF sectors in the early 1990s due to cadets never having 500 command hours.
I don't give a stuff either way, they pay me, I log hours their way.
I won't be looking for any other jobs anyway.
All this is CASA approved of course.
I don't give a stuff either way, they pay me, I log hours their way.
I won't be looking for any other jobs anyway.
All this is CASA approved of course.
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Tankengine, as you stated, it's for cadets to get there 500 command.
After you have that, then it makes no more sense to continue to log ICUS.
Logging ICUS the way you do, is not done in other parts of the world, like Europe. Any employer will consider it as co-pilot anyway, so makes more sense to log it as co-pilot.
Anyone out there know, how the relief captains/cruise captains are logging there hours?
Are they logging it all as co-pilot, or PIC when in left seat and co-pilot when in right seat?
After you have that, then it makes no more sense to continue to log ICUS.
Logging ICUS the way you do, is not done in other parts of the world, like Europe. Any employer will consider it as co-pilot anyway, so makes more sense to log it as co-pilot.
Anyone out there know, how the relief captains/cruise captains are logging there hours?
Are they logging it all as co-pilot, or PIC when in left seat and co-pilot when in right seat?
Airbond,
In Qantas: the Captain logs PIC, for the entire flight. Everyone else logs co-pilot, regardless of seating. Except the F/O doing ICUS thing already discussed.
We generally do not have "relief / cruise Captains", however if more than one Captain carried the additional Captains log co-pilot only. Only the Captain designated the Captain in command logs PIC.
Not my idea, I just do as paid.
In Qantas: the Captain logs PIC, for the entire flight. Everyone else logs co-pilot, regardless of seating. Except the F/O doing ICUS thing already discussed.
We generally do not have "relief / cruise Captains", however if more than one Captain carried the additional Captains log co-pilot only. Only the Captain designated the Captain in command logs PIC.
Not my idea, I just do as paid.
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Tankengine, thanks for the info how it's done in QF.
I do agree with this practice and myself do the same thing when
operating as the second captain.
The problem now that confuses this whole thing is that other airlines and country's in the world all do it differently. Same do it QF way, while others
do it another way. Actually in the EASA regs, it does state that whole ever sits in the left seat and acts as commander when the official PIC is off deck
having rest, can log PIC. Because that person is now making all decisions for that phase of flight.
So this is where it gets stuck!
You have pilots claiming they have PIC hours on an aircraft where they were not the official designated PIC
Just wish the whole world was standardized in this issue of logging hours.
I do agree with this practice and myself do the same thing when
operating as the second captain.
The problem now that confuses this whole thing is that other airlines and country's in the world all do it differently. Same do it QF way, while others
do it another way. Actually in the EASA regs, it does state that whole ever sits in the left seat and acts as commander when the official PIC is off deck
having rest, can log PIC. Because that person is now making all decisions for that phase of flight.
So this is where it gets stuck!
You have pilots claiming they have PIC hours on an aircraft where they were not the official designated PIC
Just wish the whole world was standardized in this issue of logging hours.
In the Fifties the regulations stated that for a SCPL and a First Class ATPL you need, among other things, 500 hours in command time. In other words decision making time whether on multi or single engine types. There was no such animal as ICUS. Same with instrument flight time. It could only be logged when manually flying in IMC. Later that was watered down to automatic pilot monitoring in IMC.
Since then the requirement for 500 hours in command has been watered down beyond all recognition by reducing it to 100 hours command (?) and the rest made up of ICUS time. ICUS being, IMHO, just another word for pseudo dual hours with no responsibility since the real captain is watching you like a hawk
I wonder when that first watering down of the 500 command hours was first introduced and by whom and for what justification?
Since then the requirement for 500 hours in command has been watered down beyond all recognition by reducing it to 100 hours command (?) and the rest made up of ICUS time. ICUS being, IMHO, just another word for pseudo dual hours with no responsibility since the real captain is watching you like a hawk
I wonder when that first watering down of the 500 command hours was first introduced and by whom and for what justification?
