China Southern trainee bangs up a Grob - Merredin
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So do you have anything constructive to offer Chocks, short of confining piloting to white Anglo Saxon males over 50 who have billy-cart tickets, and who don't vote for lefties? You're welcome to your rant but you could actually have cited some very respectable work where open-minded aviation professionals have attempted to recognize and address in training some of the more common cultural biases. The 'power distance' study to which some Asian and Hispanic operators paid particular attention comes to mind.
I look forward to your next exposure of the failings of ham-fisted, pig-headed, impulsive, red-neck bogans in the cockpit. Not like we don't have the odd cultural issue of our own.
I look forward to your next exposure of the failings of ham-fisted, pig-headed, impulsive, red-neck bogans in the cockpit. Not like we don't have the odd cultural issue of our own.
Last edited by tecman; 6th Feb 2014 at 12:43.
Sorry to rain on your parade, these guys do go straight to the right seat of a widebody, depending on their parents standing in the communist party, Dragonair used to do same but now they start right seat 320. Sure, they might not all do that, but some do.
If their parents are really important, they could have a widebody command in 2 years, welcome to China.
(reference : I worked there for 5 years)
If their parents are really important, they could have a widebody command in 2 years, welcome to China.
(reference : I worked there for 5 years)
If their parents are really important, they could have a widebody command in 2 years, welcome to China.
Would you like to back up that statement, in my opinion, and based on my experience in China, I say that is utter rubbish.
Tootle pip!!
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Love it when a person who has experienced the factors we're discussing but hasn't obtained his PHD & written several papers on the topic gets howled down for having the arrogance to have an opinion. Love it 
Where do you reckon researchers get their material from nob?
And the good ole rascist card, yeahhhh! Rascist for having a fact based opinion
Where do you reckon researchers get their material from nob?
And the good ole rascist card, yeahhhh! Rascist for having a fact based opinion
New world
Cadets it's the way of the future and has been the way of the past in Europe for years.
Cadets are training specifically for the multi crew environment and airline world. Yes problem is that then all of their experience is gained in the RHS, so then it's up to the line captains not to be dicks and empart personal knowledge. I have never had a problem with a cadet, never had an issue going for a piss and leaving him to drive the bird, that's what he trained for. Yes experience can't be bought but it can in ways be taught.
Be honest had any of us had the opportunity in there early 20's to grab a cadetship and get in the RHS, who wouldn't of???
I'm glad I didn't have the opportunity as the best 15 years of my flying life was GA. I feel sorry for cadets missing out on this chunk of aviation. Love showing them ole pics of Barons on dirt strips, a 206 in the middle of no where...
It sickens me to see the racist bull**** on here and life in general. We all screw up, I watched a grog crash in Jandakot, not Asian not cadet, so why did he crash? According some here he shouldn't have cause he's white.
Now what would be said on here if one of the white virgin cadets had something similar during traing?
Cadets are training specifically for the multi crew environment and airline world. Yes problem is that then all of their experience is gained in the RHS, so then it's up to the line captains not to be dicks and empart personal knowledge. I have never had a problem with a cadet, never had an issue going for a piss and leaving him to drive the bird, that's what he trained for. Yes experience can't be bought but it can in ways be taught.
Be honest had any of us had the opportunity in there early 20's to grab a cadetship and get in the RHS, who wouldn't of???
I'm glad I didn't have the opportunity as the best 15 years of my flying life was GA. I feel sorry for cadets missing out on this chunk of aviation. Love showing them ole pics of Barons on dirt strips, a 206 in the middle of no where...
It sickens me to see the racist bull**** on here and life in general. We all screw up, I watched a grog crash in Jandakot, not Asian not cadet, so why did he crash? According some here he shouldn't have cause he's white.
Now what would be said on here if one of the white virgin cadets had something similar during traing?
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GlobalA, yes I agree with your first part regarding cadets and such courses do take time to improve or change where weaknesses are evident. It's a very fluid environment as we as pilots, are continually learning and grappling with newer technologies... but you fall down when you "pull out the race card" again, just like Tecman.
Yes, other "white cadets" (your words) have had incidents and accidents in their training... just read the safety journals. The info's out there, you've just gotta find it (instead of being spoon fed on here!)
Tecman... something to offer? Realising, discussing and understanding the problem is the first step, before any progress can be made. Denial and saying people are racist only stunts the progress. The fact is we are all different and all with our own strengths and weaknesses. Better people than I are already well onto it and have implemented scenarios into Airline Cyclic checks and regular CRM courses, to try and streamline cultural differences. A great example close to home maybe Garuda with their regaining EU approval after their big improvements in training, safety management and oversight. Their own Indonesia is very culturally diverse, without even taking into account the expats. EK is another where cultural diversity had to be accounted for. Simplifying checklists back to basic Boeing checklists, instead of combined Boeing/Airbus (and abit more) checklists (aka SQ) was one way it was easier for multiple cultures to adapt and streamline into safer ops (given eaches strengths & weaknesses).
"I'm proud of being black" said the African... to which the Asian replied "I'm also proud of being yellow and strong". The Middle Eastern fellow also spoke up saying "I'm also very proud to be an Arab"... and "I'm also proud to be a white Anglo-saxon" said the racist... !
Happy landings
Yes, other "white cadets" (your words) have had incidents and accidents in their training... just read the safety journals. The info's out there, you've just gotta find it (instead of being spoon fed on here!)
Tecman... something to offer? Realising, discussing and understanding the problem is the first step, before any progress can be made. Denial and saying people are racist only stunts the progress. The fact is we are all different and all with our own strengths and weaknesses. Better people than I are already well onto it and have implemented scenarios into Airline Cyclic checks and regular CRM courses, to try and streamline cultural differences. A great example close to home maybe Garuda with their regaining EU approval after their big improvements in training, safety management and oversight. Their own Indonesia is very culturally diverse, without even taking into account the expats. EK is another where cultural diversity had to be accounted for. Simplifying checklists back to basic Boeing checklists, instead of combined Boeing/Airbus (and abit more) checklists (aka SQ) was one way it was easier for multiple cultures to adapt and streamline into safer ops (given eaches strengths & weaknesses).
"I'm proud of being black" said the African... to which the Asian replied "I'm also proud of being yellow and strong". The Middle Eastern fellow also spoke up saying "I'm also very proud to be an Arab"... and "I'm also proud to be a white Anglo-saxon" said the racist... !
Happy landings
back to your jetstar PR thread mate Join Date: Apr 2012
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Chocks, I read your last posting with interest and found it informative. No problem with accounting for cultural biases in training or operations, as I noted before. I'm simply contending that your other post added nothing, and taking your position to its conclusion, would (a) dry up the pilot supply in short order and (b) ignore cultural biases close to hand.
So far as I'm aware there's no column-inch limit here and no censoring of viewpoints. You're welcome to your space, but expect those whom you offend to respond.
So far as I'm aware there's no column-inch limit here and no censoring of viewpoints. You're welcome to your space, but expect those whom you offend to respond.
There are a few commercial pilots of Asian descent, born and raised in Australia and thereby adhering to the Australian way of life and culture. They seem to be able to keep the blue side up and not bend too many planes. With that in mind what Chocks Away posted seems to be pretty much on the ball. It's not so much the genes you were born with, but the safety culture that you've been brought up with that makes the difference.
Leadsled, by your naivety, not believing that sort of thing could happen in China, is pretty much proof positive you've never worked for a Chinese airline and probably never been to China. How on earth would I prove it to you even if I wanted to?
And yes, a colleague of mine taught a cadet for a Chinese airline who was a widebody captain in a little over 2 years
And yes, a colleague of mine taught a cadet for a Chinese airline who was a widebody captain in a little over 2 years
and probably never been to China
The above will come as a surprise to my colleagues and the people I deal with in China, even more of a surprise to some of the China Southern Sky Pearl Club staff, who seem to have come to know me quite well.
Just to further confirm your views of my naivety, I guess I only imagined the last 20 years of so of involvement with one particular airline in China and its training policies, and the consequent (in my opinion) very high standard of cadet graduates.
What you really mean is you are retelling third or fourth hand stories and you don't actually have direct evidence of your claims.
Tootle pip!!
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Originally Posted by Chocks Away
Many of us here as kids climbed trees, played fast & strong team sports where height; depth perception; peripheral vision and speaking up were learnt (often from broken bones)... we drove cars early and learnt to deal with the sensation of speed and depth perception early on... many others in China/Singapore etc simply don't or haven't. They travel on mass public transport or taxis which someone else is co-ordinating while their heads are buried in their smartphones; they don't own let alone drive a car etc etc
While you were riding around in mummy's car, sleeping on your soft mattresss and waking up each morning to watch cartoons and eat your sugar cereal, a lot of Chinese kids - especially in the north and more remote parts - were trekking or riding their bikes to school through humid summers, snow blizzards and Siberian winds. They came home from school and worked in the fields or went hunting on foot or horseback with their fathers. They played team sports and practiced martial arts. They learned to shoot rifles and tackle obstacle courses and other drills as part of their compulsory military training. In later years, they learned to ride scooters and motorcycles - weaving in and out of dense, at times fast-flowing traffic - better than I've seen most Aussies drive to the shops, slowing down in their massive 4WDs to go over speed-humps. They studied to all hours while supporting their extended families as the pressure mounted to school and fight their way out of poverty - while all most Aussie kids had to worry about was what brand cricket bat they were getting for Christmas.
And you reckon they don't speak up? Do you think Australia would ever see the likes of Tiananmen Square and its fearless students facing down tanks and guns as they called for socio-political change in one of the oldest civilisations on earth? The only time most Aussies "speak up" is to complain about not getting enough middle-class welfare or tax breaks. And they only vote (when they can be arsed!) for the nastiest, most selfish right-wing politicians who make the biggest promises to keep them soft and rich in the comfort of their over-inflated 5x3 homes!
Mobile phones and public transport? How long have you been paying attention to China? 10 years? 15? I lived there longer than that and saw things in the 80s and 90s you obviously have never imagined. Long before there were mobile phones or modern commuter trains.
The SFO pilots you are talking about were Koreans - completely different paternalistic culture to the Chinese, bordering on almost feudalistic societal structures.
The Japanese grow up with cars - probably have the best "depth perception" and spatial awareness on the road I've ever seen; and have lightning reflexes honed on video games your kids are yet to even see! The Japanese live and breathe motorsport.
Some of those Chinese pilots, meanwhile, will have been amongst the best and brightest from a population of 1.5 billion. They may have started a long way behind in terms of capitalist trimmings and air transport, but they are catching up so fast that people like you are going to wonder where they all went in a decade or two from now.
In fact, people like you will still be wondering in 20 years time where the hell it all went wrong for Australia when we have no industry, a buggered economy and why China owns and sells our souls.
Think I'm spinning a yarn? Middle-class white Australia never saw the Japs coming until they were almost on our doorstep. And if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour . . .
But hey, that kind of thing could never happen to we superior white people again. Could it?
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Sure. But it's also reality. And complaining about it is simply the metaphorical equivalent of lying on the ground, crying about getting kicked in the nuts in a street fight instead of getting up and fighting back. All's fair in love, war and economics, after all . . .
Likewise, we could probably have a good old debate about the structural benefits of a quasi-benign single-party system (bearing in mind China is not - technically - a dictatorship) and how central planning gets things done through collective foresight and tough socio-economic decisions without having to pander to whimsical voters, monied interest groups and lobbyists every three years (never mind the impact on individual freedoms - the nation as a whole advances). But that's not the point.
The point is, argue the merits of a lack of GA culture in Asia, argue the merits of the system of selection, argue the training methods, or even argue about the commitment of the pilots being put up (as you know, quite a number of Chinese pilots don't even want to be pilots, but have been cajoled by parents or singled out by other institutions for training - not so different to the Western world wanting all its sons and daughters to be doctors, laywers, and accountants), but don't start talking crap about "depth perception", "peripheral vision" and perceived cultural character flaws - because it's just wrong.
Generalising about something (or someone) you plainly don't understand or have little experience with is not only embarrassing, it obscures the real debate. Annecdotes are not facts - as someone else has already pointed out - so why perpetuate the "myopic little Chinaman with the funny walk and talk" stereotype of the 19th Century in this day and age, where that same "Chinaman" is now rivaling the US as a superpower? That just shows there must be some very capable people in China and that maybe - just maybe - they are not as culturally and physically inferior as some of us would wish to believe. That type of thinking simply works to benefit our economic rivals to our own detriment.
Rant over.
Likewise, we could probably have a good old debate about the structural benefits of a quasi-benign single-party system (bearing in mind China is not - technically - a dictatorship) and how central planning gets things done through collective foresight and tough socio-economic decisions without having to pander to whimsical voters, monied interest groups and lobbyists every three years (never mind the impact on individual freedoms - the nation as a whole advances). But that's not the point.
The point is, argue the merits of a lack of GA culture in Asia, argue the merits of the system of selection, argue the training methods, or even argue about the commitment of the pilots being put up (as you know, quite a number of Chinese pilots don't even want to be pilots, but have been cajoled by parents or singled out by other institutions for training - not so different to the Western world wanting all its sons and daughters to be doctors, laywers, and accountants), but don't start talking crap about "depth perception", "peripheral vision" and perceived cultural character flaws - because it's just wrong.
Generalising about something (or someone) you plainly don't understand or have little experience with is not only embarrassing, it obscures the real debate. Annecdotes are not facts - as someone else has already pointed out - so why perpetuate the "myopic little Chinaman with the funny walk and talk" stereotype of the 19th Century in this day and age, where that same "Chinaman" is now rivaling the US as a superpower? That just shows there must be some very capable people in China and that maybe - just maybe - they are not as culturally and physically inferior as some of us would wish to believe. That type of thinking simply works to benefit our economic rivals to our own detriment.
Rant over.