Jetstar Asir lodgement

[Troo believer]

A question for Jetstar pilots.
If you have an incident and lodge an OSCAR, which is an in house report apparently, is it true that your management determines whether it should be forwarded to the ATSB? Surely the pilot lodging a report has the obligation not the company to report a matter to the ATSB?
Thanks for clarification.

[waren9]

pic's legal obligations are met if an oscar is filed.

there are reqmnts on the company on what must be reported.

[Troo believer]

Thanks,
Qantas gives this discretion to the reporting pilots with the simple tick in a box for the report to be forwarded to the ATSB. It seems incongruous that there are different policies for the two airlines.
To the Virgin guys and girls what happens in your airline?

[Troo believer]

Why was this topic moved?
It is a question for and by airline pilots.

[Lookleft]

Why was this topic moved?

The answer is in the title of the the forum. The question is why the question in the first place? If a pilot wants the report to go to the ATSB as well as Jetstar its possible for he/she to do both. Just because in QF you tick a box that doesn't guarantee that it has been done. Does the person submitting the safety report follow it up with the ATSB?

[Troo believer]

Just read all the reportable incidents on the ATSB website. It's obvious which airline reports the most. It's amazing that both Jetstar and Virgin rarely have bird strikes and yet Qantas has a couple every week. A Birdstike is a reportable event. I asked the question already knowing the answer and its about time there was a discussion about safety within an airline culture. Mates whom are ex QF and now in Jetstar tell me there is a distinct punitive culture. Incidents are hidden, crew stood down immediately and the no blame self reporting culture non existent. The licence holder is accountable to CASA not the airline they work for.

[nitpicker330]

In our outfit we submit an ASR (Air safety report ) and if you wish it to go to the regulator you tick MOR ( mandatory occurrence report )

However on all ASR's the company is required to forward them on IF they meet the MOR requirements even if the Pilot didn't tick requesting it.

Yes I know my outfit isn't Aussie based but we follow ICAO so I'd assume this is a worldwide "best practice"

[Troo believer]

Thanks Nitpicker,
World's best practice but not for Jetstar. They being management decide not the PIC when an ASIR is submitted or forwarded on to the ATSB. It's also vey easy to check via the ATSB website if indeed a report was forwarded to them. Just look at the way this thread has been sidetracked to GA. Moderators where are you and why are you protecting Jetstar?

[UTW]

Troo believer.....
Your question on why the post was moved was answered by Lookleft.
The title of this forum is The Pacific: General Aviation and Questions.
Why don't you call the ATSB if you're not happy with the way Jetstar handles its reports?

[FFRATS]

I know that one OSCAR event that was a ASIR and MOR that the company decided to keep "in house". That decision was from the top down (via conference call) and about 2yrs ago when some 'heat' was on JQ in the media already.

FFRATS

[Lookleft]

If whoever submitted this OSCAR thought that it was being deliberately buried by Jetstar they could still submit a report to the ATSB. If you have evidence of an immediately reportable event not being given to the ATSB I suggest you let them know otherwise all you are talking about is hearsay and probably a rumour embellished over time.

[tmpffisch]

At the end of the day, while Jetstar may submit an OSCAR as an ASIR to the ATSB, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure the ATSB receives the report. Submit through the company, give it a few days then call the ATSB to confirm that YOUR responsibilities under the Transport Safety Act have been met.

[Creampuff]

I agree with tmpffisch.

Best to have a look at sections 18 and 19 of the TSI Act: Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003

If you know your employer doesn’t report an immediately reportable or routine reportable matter to a nominated official (your employer isn’t one), you are on the hook.

[Lookleft]

I don't agree with Tmpffisch but I do agree with CP to a point. Your responsibility is to submit a report. If as a responsible person you have submitted it to another responsible person (the aircraft operator) and you have reasonable expectations they will forward it the ATSB (especially if the operator has an SMS) then you have met your responsibilities according to the TSI regs. However CPs point is if you know tha they don't forward them then it is still your responsibility. Remembering that not all incidents reported fall into the very specific categories of IRM and RRM.

[Ollie Onion]

I agree with Lookleft, the Jetstar OSCAR safety system is fully approved by CASA and therefore as a pilot you are able to satisfy your obligations by following it. The Company manual says that my only responsibility is to file the report to the safety department who I can then rely on to distribute as required.

Now, if for whatever reason I suspect the company has not complied with its own reporting requirements then there is nothing to stop me contacting CASA / ATSB myself. I should note I would only do this AFTER following up with the company and I would tell them I was going to directly approach the outside agency.

[Troo believer]

Do yourselves a favour and have a look at the fines for non disclosure. It's your licence and its your responsibility. Trusting someone else with your responsibilities as PIC doesn't absolve you of yours. You would be hung out to dry if the ATSB were left in the dark over an incident and it was not reported.

[The Banjo]

If one actually worked for Jetstar and one had access to OM1, section 18.3, you would note the PIC reporting requirements are satisfied by submitting a report to the Safety Dept who then accepts responsibilty for reporting to external agencies as required by law.

Yet another conspirancy theory as to why Qantas mainline is (according to some), the ONLY organisation in the universe capable of operating high capacity jet aircraft is well.....shotdown in flames.

[neville_nobody]

Do yourselves a favour and have a look at the fines for non disclosure. It's your licence and its your responsibility. Trusting someone else with your responsibilities as PIC doesn't absolve you of yours. You would be hung out to dry if the ATSB were left in the dark over an incident and it was not reported.

This stuff is a legal nightmare. Another situation where you could get fined for following your ops manual and the whole legal argument over which takes precedence.

I vaguely recall that Jetstar have form in this department too of not reporting incidents, however that was a while ago.

Great system CASA has going............

[Creampuff]

TB

The OM saying it is so does not make it so.

If a pilot knows that “the Safety Dept” is not discharging its responsibility, the pilot remains on the hook.

Read the TSI Act.

[neville_nobody]

How would the pilot know? You fill out the form you send it off, what then?
The pilot would probably get around it using this

Subsection (1) does not apply if the person believes, on reasonable grounds, that another responsible person has, or other responsible persons have, already reported the matter, or will as soon as is reasonably practicable report the matter, to a nominated official with all the particulars prescribed by the regulations.

So if you follow the Ops Manual that should in theory be your defense. They would have to prove that you knew that the Company had not reported it, but you really have no way of knowing that.

It's all conjecture really till someone ends up in court trying to defend why they followed the ops manual.