Lismore RV12 crash
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Lismore RV12 crash
Just spotted this from the ATSB website
It seems an amazing level of detail can be recorded and obtained from a DYNON unit! Tells a very clear story about what happened
It will be an interesting Coroners case.
http://atsb.gov.au/media/4469487/AE-2013-069_Final.pdf
It seems an amazing level of detail can be recorded and obtained from a DYNON unit! Tells a very clear story about what happened
It will be an interesting Coroners case.http://atsb.gov.au/media/4469487/AE-2013-069_Final.pdf
Last edited by VH-XXX; 5th Dec 2013 at 01:46.
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EMS module gives detailed engine data too which can be downloaded and used for all sorts of things inc tuning or how someone has flown the AC.
Even old D180 model covers lots of parameters.
Very clever and little used feature.
Some suppliers ship AC with logging turned off??
Even old D180 model covers lots of parameters.
Very clever and little used feature.
Some suppliers ship AC with logging turned off??
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I have a few comments to make here; My opinion based on the data.
Take off roll starts at 50:23 approx
Gets going at 50:28
Takeoff speed starts around 50:33
IAS peaks at about 80 Knots @ 50:42
Pitch is steady through the roll until 50:42
PA is steady from 33-42s as well, with a short dip, typical of a positive pitch up (static port sinking)
Trim is repeatedly pitched down during the acceleration and then pitched up prior to the rapid climb, then trimmed back down again
Full power applied in the time up to 50:28
Distance travelled approx 380m in the 50:25 > 50:42 sec range.
I have flown Dick VanGrunsven's own personal RV12, and even with two of us, (he is very tall & I am errr..more solid) the takeoff distance is half that.
I have made my comments known on this before. There is nothing to suggest this is anything other than the result of deliberate and foolish acts by the pilot.
I might be proven wrong when the NSW police evidence is presented to the coroner. But it looks unlikely.
Take off roll starts at 50:23 approx
Gets going at 50:28
Takeoff speed starts around 50:33
IAS peaks at about 80 Knots @ 50:42
Pitch is steady through the roll until 50:42
PA is steady from 33-42s as well, with a short dip, typical of a positive pitch up (static port sinking)
Trim is repeatedly pitched down during the acceleration and then pitched up prior to the rapid climb, then trimmed back down again
Full power applied in the time up to 50:28
Distance travelled approx 380m in the 50:25 > 50:42 sec range.
I have flown Dick VanGrunsven's own personal RV12, and even with two of us, (he is very tall & I am errr..more solid) the takeoff distance is half that.
I have made my comments known on this before. There is nothing to suggest this is anything other than the result of deliberate and foolish acts by the pilot.
I might be proven wrong when the NSW police evidence is presented to the coroner. But it looks unlikely.
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I truly believe that you are right Jabba. This doesn't read like a textbook first flight for any aircraft, let alone a pilots first flight in an unfamiliar aircraft. I've done near double-digit first flights in brand new aircraft and I've never approached the flight like this one took place.
There is loads of documentation available on the RA-Aus, SAAA and CASA websites and numerous test flying books available. I follow everything, including natural fabrics, long pants and shirt, fuel load and flight crew. Plenty before me have done otherwise and not been successful. If I had a jump rig, I would be wearing one. Helmets are also a good idea. Years ago many of the RAA guys I knew wore them even in enclosed aircraft.
There is loads of documentation available on the RA-Aus, SAAA and CASA websites and numerous test flying books available. I follow everything, including natural fabrics, long pants and shirt, fuel load and flight crew. Plenty before me have done otherwise and not been successful. If I had a jump rig, I would be wearing one. Helmets are also a good idea. Years ago many of the RAA guys I knew wore them even in enclosed aircraft.
mistrimmed ?
Seems similar to a home built at MB - I believe about 20 years ago ?
First takeoff in a new pusher prop acft - thrust vector kept the nose down, so pilot pulled full back on the stick...then rejected the takeoff - closed the throttle before releasing back pressure and zoooooomed straight up - and then straight down.
EOA
Does anybody recall that one ??
First takeoff in a new pusher prop acft - thrust vector kept the nose down, so pilot pulled full back on the stick...then rejected the takeoff - closed the throttle before releasing back pressure and zoooooomed straight up - and then straight down.
EOA
Does anybody recall that one ??
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I do not think that has much in common here.
I do not see overlaying the data that it was runaway trim either. If it did it really did not move far (graph scale illusion) and it changed direction 3 times. Looks like very deliberate trimming to me, and completely explainable.
At the stall there may have been mishandling of rudder, but at 100 or so feet or whatever it was above the ground
Lots of RV12s flying, no thrust vector problems.
Refer my post above
I do not see overlaying the data that it was runaway trim either. If it did it really did not move far (graph scale illusion) and it changed direction 3 times. Looks like very deliberate trimming to me, and completely explainable.
At the stall there may have been mishandling of rudder, but at 100 or so feet or whatever it was above the ground
Lots of RV12s flying, no thrust vector problems.
Refer my post above
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Any mention of pilot incapacitation? The data just doesn't make sense, even with a runaway trim, (which I can't see in the data) the aircraft should still be easily controllable by a pilot of his abilities. And from what I have heard, the RV12 is typical of a vans, well balanced light and harmonised controls. Even a tecnam with stabilator, and anti servo trim is manageable with runaway full up trim, have experienced it twice, wouldn't want to fly 4 hours with it though, but very manageable.
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The trim has only moved across a very small range of its possible motion, looks more like play in the servo as the stabilator is loaded/unloaded, so I don't think that's a factor.
Jaba, what's your theory regarding what the pilot did?
Jaba, what's your theory regarding what the pilot did?
The whole thing looks like it's over in about 3s, 4s max. The massive pitch up (nearly 60° nose-high) and loss(?) of roll control at still fairly high airspeed makes me wonder (again) about possible control system failure/jamming.
I find it hard to believe that someone would deliberately fly an LSA aircraft in this manner on any flight, leave alone a first flight. Call me naive if you need to.
I find it hard to believe that someone would deliberately fly an LSA aircraft in this manner on any flight, leave alone a first flight. Call me naive if you need to.
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I wouldn't pressure Jabba et al for a detailed answer as he might find himself presenting as an expert witness at the Coroners inquest.
All of the numbers make perfect sense, there is no disputing it. All control inputs are clearly reflected in the information provided.
The only thing I would remotely consider as an abnormality in the figures would be the stall indicator. It is suggesting that the wing stalled immediately as back stick was applied which could lead one to believe that the aircraft entered a high speed stall as a potentially significant back force was applied on the elevator.
The only similar crash that I can think of in recent times would be the Citabria in SA? that crashed when it spun at the end of the runway after a pull-up and killed the terminally ill pilot and innocent teenage passenger.
All of the numbers make perfect sense, there is no disputing it. All control inputs are clearly reflected in the information provided.
The only thing I would remotely consider as an abnormality in the figures would be the stall indicator. It is suggesting that the wing stalled immediately as back stick was applied which could lead one to believe that the aircraft entered a high speed stall as a potentially significant back force was applied on the elevator.
The only similar crash that I can think of in recent times would be the Citabria in SA? that crashed when it spun at the end of the runway after a pull-up and killed the terminally ill pilot and innocent teenage passenger.
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W8 No.
XXX I am not afraid of that.
The trim adjustments to me, and assuming that the ATSB scales are correct for the 0-5volt analogue input are showing roughly what I would expect to see. That is a take off, airspeed builds, trim forward, then a big pull up with trimming then OHHH FARKKK Trim forward again, all in the time frame shown.
And remember this is the exact same flight profile that he always did while showing off. As noted by past students etc. So to me, that is a fair assumption of what happened. The fact the datelines up 100% with what we all thought happened based on witness account, previous student accounts, is hardly surprising.
I study people's data files often, most on pprune would understand that. I could be wrong, but so far nothing in the data proves anything but what I and others suspected eight months ago.
If you think otherwise, study the data hard, and tell me. I am happy to be shown wrong with good data and logic.
XXX I am not afraid of that.
The trim adjustments to me, and assuming that the ATSB scales are correct for the 0-5volt analogue input are showing roughly what I would expect to see. That is a take off, airspeed builds, trim forward, then a big pull up with trimming then OHHH FARKKK Trim forward again, all in the time frame shown.
And remember this is the exact same flight profile that he always did while showing off. As noted by past students etc. So to me, that is a fair assumption of what happened. The fact the datelines up 100% with what we all thought happened based on witness account, previous student accounts, is hardly surprising.
I study people's data files often, most on pprune would understand that. I could be wrong, but so far nothing in the data proves anything but what I and others suspected eight months ago.
If you think otherwise, study the data hard, and tell me. I am happy to be shown wrong with good data and logic.
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Jaba,
As much as much it pains me to say so, I agree with everything you've said.
I say it pains me to say so, because the pilot was a guy I'd known for a very long time (26yrs), had flown with many times and had also watched flying, pushing the boundaries, beyond what anyone saw him do at airshows. A skilled pilot in an aircraft he knew well without a doubt, which leaves us wondering why did fly an aircraft he didn't know and one which had never flown before in such a way ?
Lancair
As much as much it pains me to say so, I agree with everything you've said.
I say it pains me to say so, because the pilot was a guy I'd known for a very long time (26yrs), had flown with many times and had also watched flying, pushing the boundaries, beyond what anyone saw him do at airshows. A skilled pilot in an aircraft he knew well without a doubt, which leaves us wondering why did fly an aircraft he didn't know and one which had never flown before in such a way ?
Lancair
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I am led to believe that the 3 separate videos taken of the crash flight include the pilot boarding the aircraft, with commentary, pilot comments, taxi and the full flight. Two were taken from the same position and one elsewhere. I am led to believe that if one was to watch one of these videos you would be led to the conclusion as per the previous two posts. As Lancair says why anyone would do this in a brand new unfamiliar aircraft defies logic.
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Agreed L70
And the result is sadness for the locals and family, the guy who built it forever horrified he might be at fault, and that must be awful. And the bit that affects people all round the world is the negative press associated with the type of aircraft.
It does nobody any good. There is not even a lesson to be learned here. It has been proven once again but nothing new to learn. Sad waste.
I never met the man but what bothers me is that many knew of the antics, and there are several dead students I am led to believe, so one wonders why the rogue element was not pulled into line long ago.
It is not until people contacted me (RV experience) that the stories started flowing. I am shocked and disgusted in what I hear. I have referred one of them to the Police to make a statement. That's how serious I feel about it.
Sad waste of life and needless harm to countless others.
And the result is sadness for the locals and family, the guy who built it forever horrified he might be at fault, and that must be awful. And the bit that affects people all round the world is the negative press associated with the type of aircraft.
It does nobody any good. There is not even a lesson to be learned here. It has been proven once again but nothing new to learn. Sad waste.
I never met the man but what bothers me is that many knew of the antics, and there are several dead students I am led to believe, so one wonders why the rogue element was not pulled into line long ago.
It is not until people contacted me (RV experience) that the stories started flowing. I am shocked and disgusted in what I hear. I have referred one of them to the Police to make a statement. That's how serious I feel about it.
Sad waste of life and needless harm to countless others.
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Well, Jaba, personally good on you for having the balls to tell it like it is. For too long idiots in government departments too gutless to state the true causes in fear of litigation have actually damaged air safety.
And bloody good on you for taking this matter to the police, I look forward to an investigation of fact
And bloody good on you for taking this matter to the police, I look forward to an investigation of fact
