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Firefighting plane down in NSW

Old 26th Oct 2013, 22:35
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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601, seems a little strange doesn't it? I know the 802 has a spar life of 20000hrs if it only does bombing work. If you do Ag work as well, the spar life is reduced to 9000hrs.... I guess the theory is during Ag it's heavier for longer and makes a lot of max rate turns while heavy.


Engineer, I can't find anything on casa website about the grounding of the turbine droms, but it is the weekend. I wonder wether casa has grounded them or NAFC has grounded the ones on contract to them. Either way I believe they should be grounded, at least until this latest incident has been investigated.
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 02:44
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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im not sure about the exact spar lifes for Air tractors but the orginal fire bombing designed doors on the 802 are electric controled with with g meters etc which varies the door openings during the drop. I do know that not everyone here uses them, hence why did the manufacture make them that way to start with, reason to protect the airframe from excesive g stress.
but hey what dose the manufacture know !!!!!!!!
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 02:53
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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it seams the other thread is closed so i do wont to make this clear. the reason for my comments is simple this is NOT new accident. It has been known about and no one stepped up to the mark ( well some people did and they squashed) well sorry this time i had to let it be known. people in the industry have known about this for so long and we have had another passing i was not going to let it go. CASA has grounded the aircraft so its now no longer hidden.
sad part is we lost another person to it.
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Old 28th Oct 2013, 20:10
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Grounding

Yr right , would you like to show me where the Turbine Drom is grounded by CASA , ours is still flying and as a LAME , how am I supposed to know if there is nothing on the the CASA home page or in the PZL AD's
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Old 29th Oct 2013, 01:15
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I understand that the weather in the blue mountains last week was blustery, with reports from those on ground of the wind suddenly gusting, veering or abating.
This is not unusual on a bad fire day. There was a report that at one point helicopters stopped working as bambi buckets were being adversely affected by the wind.

Is it possible to compare the airframe stresses of the fixed wing fire bombing low level flights over rugged terrain in blustery weather to normal ops in the ag role?

Is it likely that a patch of very severe turbulence was encountered that would have taken down any light aircraft?


Mickjoebill
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Old 1st Nov 2013, 12:01
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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for the ATSB, thats quick!
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Old 1st Nov 2013, 23:39
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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no standard just a pre report plus with electronic media can get it to more and more quickly.
plus with the wing separation it very clear what happened and look at the wing fitting failure,
just sad
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Old 2nd Nov 2013, 21:40
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Don_Apron View Post
BPF



You would also disagree, that it was a sad event and Fire Bomber pilots should be paid more??

.
You can't spend the extra salary when you are dead. Compared to Canada, aerial forest fire suppression ops in Australia are a total goat rope.

From my POV the whole system is broken and the disproportionate number of accidents are one symptom.

FYI Dromaders, especially the piston ones, are not used by any jurisdiction in Canada. They were looked at on several occasions and were deemed unsuitable, so why are they working in Australia ?
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Old 3rd Nov 2013, 03:03
  #50 (permalink)  
601
 
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I knew I had read an ATSB report on operating the M18 Dromader aircraft at take-off weights above 4,200 kg.

Investigation: AI-2011-150 - Operation of the PZL-Mielec M18 Turbine Dromader at take-off weights above 4,200 kg
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Old 5th Nov 2013, 08:29
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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well to my knowledge there no radial droms on fire work. the accident was a modified turbine drom. the radial drom is actually a terrific aeroplane on fires, a little slower than a turbine to and from the zone but over the drop zone it is more precise the lord give with one hand a take with the other.
if you trend any aircraft it will be as reliable as any other aircraft it is a myth that turbines are more reliable. rfs think that piston engine aircraft arnt reliable can you see a pattern forming yet ?
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Old 5th Nov 2013, 09:21
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Vic has been using a mixture of AT's, turbine and radial Droms on fires up till now. As far as being more precise I disagree, it's the finger on the button that makes for a good drop. Going to be interesting this fire season in Victoria if the Droms remain grounded.
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Old 6th Nov 2013, 00:18
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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From ABC News

CASA grounds Dromader firefighting planes after fatal crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) has announced it has grounded all Dromader aircraft, one of Australia's key firefighting planes.

Pilot David Black, 43, was killed when his Dromader plane crashed two weeks ago at Wirritin, in Budawang National Park, near Ulladulla while fighting the New South Wales bushfires.

Reports said one wing fell off before the plane plummeted to the ground.

The Dromaders are used widely for crop dusting and for water bombing during the fire season.

A total of 30 planes, including eight in Victoria, have been grounded.

CASA says the grounding is to allow work to continue on safety issues relating to maintenance inspections and the operation of the aircraft.

"CASA is obtaining maintenance data and information from the Dromader operators. This will be carefully analysed before Dromader flights resume," the organisation said in a statement.

An Australian Transport Safety Bureau report in April highlighted safety concerns with the planes when they carry loads of more than 4.2 tonnes.
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Old 6th Nov 2013, 21:54
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Don't they mean with a take off weight of over 4.2 tons?
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 08:01
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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This is probably a dumb question, but can someone please advise what the regulatory mechanism is that CASA has used to ground these planes?

I don't see any media release on the CASA website, nor any recent ADs published that appear to be applicable - I'm obviously looking in the wrong spot?? (Presumably the grounded aircraft have previously been complying with AD/PZL/5?? )
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 08:27
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Drom grounding

Duncan g
I understand your question , we received a Direction from CASA grounding our aircraft , as yet the AD doesn't apply to our aircraft as it is below 2500 hours . You would think by now there would be an AD or something from CASA advising the rest of us the aircraft is grounded , otherwise how would I know as a LAME know the aircraft is grounded
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 12:24
  #57 (permalink)  
601
 
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would I know as a LAME know the aircraft is grounded
I believe CASA would notify the Registered Operator of the aircraft, not an individual LAME.

The RO would then notify the appropriate staff and maintenance providers via the HAAMC.
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 20:06
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Its still not clear to me what the regulatory mechanism is. Surely if the grounding were achieved via a legislative direction or instrument, then that is a matter for the public record and needs to be published on comlaw along with all the other instruments and directions??
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Old 11th Nov 2013, 21:03
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking as someone who worked on the behaviour of metals under strain, the problem for is that "hrs" are merely an approximation of the life of the component.

What really determines the life is "seconds at x kg loading (and perhaps at temperature T deg mas well)" ,called the strain history, and that will give a finite life to identical components - in aluminium anyway. steel gets complicated by the existence of a yield point.

now fudge for manufacturing differences and defects and corrosion, apply a rule of thumb or Two, do some testing of ultimate loads and voila! We convince ourselves that there is a 99.95 percent chance that the component will last "x" thousand hours.

Obviously in the case of the Dromader either the assumptions were wrong or the "allowable "strain history of the components was exceeded.
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 04:02
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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the 415's would be great, but why would you want/need the military to operate them.. Canada and the US as well as others (spain etc..) all run them as a civil operation.. are we not that capable..?
Not exactly true...across Canada, the Cl 415 fleets are civilian operated, but State-owned, due to the high acquisition costs of the airframes. In the USA, the first 415 has just gone into private hands, but I believe that the company has a multi-year contract from the USFS, which will help persuade bankers to loosen the purse-strings for a loan..

On the operational side of things, scoopers are great if you've got suitable water (~ 1 mile of water) close to the fire. Obviously, the further away from the fire, the longer your circuit time, and the less effective you are..it's all about gallons per hour..
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