Firefighting plane down in NSW
Joined: Mar 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,658
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From: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Can someone enlighten me how the MTOW for the Dromader is higher when doing firefighting than when doing ag work.
I would have thought that the unforeseen g loadings could/would be higher during firefighting than during ag work, event allowing for the reduced angle of bank during turns.
I would have thought that the unforeseen g loadings could/would be higher during firefighting than during ag work, event allowing for the reduced angle of bank during turns.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: low and heavy
601, seems a little strange doesn't it? I know the 802 has a spar life of 20000hrs if it only does bombing work. If you do Ag work as well, the spar life is reduced to 9000hrs.... I guess the theory is during Ag it's heavier for longer and makes a lot of max rate turns while heavy.
Engineer, I can't find anything on casa website about the grounding of the turbine droms, but it is the weekend. I wonder wether casa has grounded them or NAFC has grounded the ones on contract to them. Either way I believe they should be grounded, at least until this latest incident has been investigated.
Engineer, I can't find anything on casa website about the grounding of the turbine droms, but it is the weekend. I wonder wether casa has grounded them or NAFC has grounded the ones on contract to them. Either way I believe they should be grounded, at least until this latest incident has been investigated.
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: australia
im not sure about the exact spar lifes for Air tractors but the orginal fire bombing designed doors on the 802 are electric controled with with g meters etc which varies the door openings during the drop. I do know that not everyone here uses them, hence why did the manufacture make them that way to start with, reason to protect the airframe from excesive g stress.
but hey what dose the manufacture know !!!!!!!!
but hey what dose the manufacture know !!!!!!!!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,044
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From: australia
it seams the other thread is closed so i do wont to make this clear. the reason for my comments is simple this is NOT new accident. It has been known about and no one stepped up to the mark ( well some people did and they squashed) well sorry this time i had to let it be known. people in the industry have known about this for so long and we have had another passing i was not going to let it go. CASA has grounded the aircraft so its now no longer hidden.
sad part is we lost another person to it.
sad part is we lost another person to it.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 34
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From: near the hangar , australia
Grounding
Yr right , would you like to show me where the Turbine Drom is grounded by CASA , ours is still flying and as a LAME , how am I supposed to know if there is nothing on the the CASA home page or in the PZL AD's
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: UK/OZ
I understand that the weather in the blue mountains last week was blustery, with reports from those on ground of the wind suddenly gusting, veering or abating.
This is not unusual on a bad fire day. There was a report that at one point helicopters stopped working as bambi buckets were being adversely affected by the wind.
Is it possible to compare the airframe stresses of the fixed wing fire bombing low level flights over rugged terrain in blustery weather to normal ops in the ag role?
Is it likely that a patch of very severe turbulence was encountered that would have taken down any light aircraft?
Mickjoebill
This is not unusual on a bad fire day. There was a report that at one point helicopters stopped working as bambi buckets were being adversely affected by the wind.
Is it possible to compare the airframe stresses of the fixed wing fire bombing low level flights over rugged terrain in blustery weather to normal ops in the ag role?
Is it likely that a patch of very severe turbulence was encountered that would have taken down any light aircraft?
Mickjoebill
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,044
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From: australia
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
From: australia
no standard just a pre report plus with electronic media can get it to more and more quickly.
plus with the wing separation it very clear what happened and look at the wing fitting failure,
just sad
plus with the wing separation it very clear what happened and look at the wing fitting failure,
just sad
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,657
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From: Canada
From my POV the whole system is broken and the disproportionate number of accidents are one symptom.
FYI Dromaders, especially the piston ones, are not used by any jurisdiction in Canada. They were looked at on several occasions and were deemed unsuitable, so why are they working in Australia ?
Joined: Mar 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,658
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From: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
I knew I had read an ATSB report on operating the M18 Dromader aircraft at take-off weights above 4,200 kg.
Investigation: AI-2011-150 - Operation of the PZL-Mielec M18 Turbine Dromader at take-off weights above 4,200 kg
Investigation: AI-2011-150 - Operation of the PZL-Mielec M18 Turbine Dromader at take-off weights above 4,200 kg
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,044
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From: australia
well to my knowledge there no radial droms on fire work. the accident was a modified turbine drom. the radial drom is actually a terrific aeroplane on fires, a little slower than a turbine to and from the zone but over the drop zone it is more precise the lord give with one hand a take with the other.
if you trend any aircraft it will be as reliable as any other aircraft it is a myth that turbines are more reliable. rfs think that piston engine aircraft arnt reliable can you see a pattern forming yet ?
if you trend any aircraft it will be as reliable as any other aircraft it is a myth that turbines are more reliable. rfs think that piston engine aircraft arnt reliable can you see a pattern forming yet ?
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 90
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From: Centre
Vic has been using a mixture of AT's, turbine and radial Droms on fires up till now. As far as being more precise I disagree, it's the finger on the button that makes for a good drop. Going to be interesting this fire season in Victoria if the Droms remain grounded.
Joined: May 2011
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 299
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From: Australia
From ABC News
CASA grounds Dromader firefighting planes after fatal crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) has announced it has grounded all Dromader aircraft, one of Australia's key firefighting planes.
Pilot David Black, 43, was killed when his Dromader plane crashed two weeks ago at Wirritin, in Budawang National Park, near Ulladulla while fighting the New South Wales bushfires.
Reports said one wing fell off before the plane plummeted to the ground.
The Dromaders are used widely for crop dusting and for water bombing during the fire season.
A total of 30 planes, including eight in Victoria, have been grounded.
CASA says the grounding is to allow work to continue on safety issues relating to maintenance inspections and the operation of the aircraft.
"CASA is obtaining maintenance data and information from the Dromader operators. This will be carefully analysed before Dromader flights resume," the organisation said in a statement.
An Australian Transport Safety Bureau report in April highlighted safety concerns with the planes when they carry loads of more than 4.2 tonnes.
CASA grounds Dromader firefighting planes after fatal crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) has announced it has grounded all Dromader aircraft, one of Australia's key firefighting planes.
Pilot David Black, 43, was killed when his Dromader plane crashed two weeks ago at Wirritin, in Budawang National Park, near Ulladulla while fighting the New South Wales bushfires.
Reports said one wing fell off before the plane plummeted to the ground.
The Dromaders are used widely for crop dusting and for water bombing during the fire season.
A total of 30 planes, including eight in Victoria, have been grounded.
CASA says the grounding is to allow work to continue on safety issues relating to maintenance inspections and the operation of the aircraft.
"CASA is obtaining maintenance data and information from the Dromader operators. This will be carefully analysed before Dromader flights resume," the organisation said in a statement.
An Australian Transport Safety Bureau report in April highlighted safety concerns with the planes when they carry loads of more than 4.2 tonnes.
Joined: May 2010
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From: More than 300km from SY, Australia
casa, atsb and surveillance
This goes into some of the issues in this.
Dromader fleet grounded Why this long?? | Assistance to the Aviation Industry
I feel for families when the regulator just get's it wrong, the loss of family members businesses and other avoidable effects.
Dromader fleet grounded Why this long?? | Assistance to the Aviation Industry
I feel for families when the regulator just get's it wrong, the loss of family members businesses and other avoidable effects.
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 47
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From: Blue Yonder
This is probably a dumb question, but can someone please advise what the regulatory mechanism is that CASA has used to ground these planes?
I don't see any media release on the CASA website, nor any recent ADs published that appear to be applicable - I'm obviously looking in the wrong spot?? (Presumably the grounded aircraft have previously been complying with AD/PZL/5?? )
I don't see any media release on the CASA website, nor any recent ADs published that appear to be applicable - I'm obviously looking in the wrong spot?? (Presumably the grounded aircraft have previously been complying with AD/PZL/5?? )
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: near the hangar , australia
Drom grounding
Duncan g
I understand your question , we received a Direction from CASA grounding our aircraft , as yet the AD doesn't apply to our aircraft as it is below 2500 hours . You would think by now there would be an AD or something from CASA advising the rest of us the aircraft is grounded , otherwise how would I know as a LAME know the aircraft is grounded
I understand your question , we received a Direction from CASA grounding our aircraft , as yet the AD doesn't apply to our aircraft as it is below 2500 hours . You would think by now there would be an AD or something from CASA advising the rest of us the aircraft is grounded , otherwise how would I know as a LAME know the aircraft is grounded
Joined: Mar 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,658
Likes: 153
From: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
would I know as a LAME know the aircraft is grounded
The RO would then notify the appropriate staff and maintenance providers via the HAAMC.