Light Aircraft down Hamilton Vic
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jaba
Family's in mourning , not the time to let the press take views from this site as gossip.
I feel as much as you for the lack of compliance from ATSB, but lets give some time for the family to griev.
Family's in mourning , not the time to let the press take views from this site as gossip.
I feel as much as you for the lack of compliance from ATSB, but lets give some time for the family to griev.
Crikeys.
I'm sorry for your loss.
This site however is all about discussion on all things aviation including accidents.
I have read things on pprune that have totally changed my approach to safety and flying commercially in general.
At times the information I've got from here has been profound and who knows, it may have already or may one day save my life...
Its important to discuss... everything,
And ignore the rubbish..
All the best..
I'm sorry for your loss.
This site however is all about discussion on all things aviation including accidents.
I have read things on pprune that have totally changed my approach to safety and flying commercially in general.
At times the information I've got from here has been profound and who knows, it may have already or may one day save my life...
Its important to discuss... everything,
And ignore the rubbish..
All the best..
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can everyone just stand back , remember a fellow aviator has just died , parents probably don't understand your wisdom in sorting the problem so soon.
My post is about ..don't give the press gossip, ...please back off
My post is about ..don't give the press gossip, ...please back off
It seems like we end up having this discussion on a regular basis. We had the same arguments a year or so ago about NVFR and shared some pretty harrowing stories about how we were lucky to get through. Does anyone remember which thread that was?
I feel very strongly that the NVFR rating should involve much more training and agree that ATSB/CASA should have acted prior to this crash.
As for closing the thread....discussing fatal accidents has always been an integral part of flying and always will be. Pilots ( remember this is a pilots forum) discuss the crashes because they want to know how to stay alive. I am of the same mind as Jabba, a very good friend of mine crashed and everyone on board was killed. It was discussed in depth and I never felt that it shouldn't be or felt any desire to gloss over/ ignore mistakes he made ( that is not an inference that mistakes were made in the Hamilton crash, for all we know it was mechanical). He made some mistakes but it is irrelevant to our friendship, it is flying.
I feel very strongly that the NVFR rating should involve much more training and agree that ATSB/CASA should have acted prior to this crash.
As for closing the thread....discussing fatal accidents has always been an integral part of flying and always will be. Pilots ( remember this is a pilots forum) discuss the crashes because they want to know how to stay alive. I am of the same mind as Jabba, a very good friend of mine crashed and everyone on board was killed. It was discussed in depth and I never felt that it shouldn't be or felt any desire to gloss over/ ignore mistakes he made ( that is not an inference that mistakes were made in the Hamilton crash, for all we know it was mechanical). He made some mistakes but it is irrelevant to our friendship, it is flying.
Last edited by framer; 24th Sep 2013 at 13:00.
The ATSB will be around two years and there is little chance of a valid explanation, usually just a couple of suggestions with little evidence. Now is the time to discuss, not in two years, especially if someone here learns from it. Nothing has been said here that could be used against the pilot, fellow pilots or the industry
In daylight simulated instrument flying, it is normal (and very common) for the student to see a horizon in his peripheral vision. The temptation to sneak a quick look outside during simulated instrument flying is very strong and often the instructor will not know if the student is cheating. Every pilot has "cheated" at some time in his early instrument flying training and even on instrument rating tests under the hood. That is the beauty of proper simulators because you can't `cheat`.
But dark night circuits away from extensive ground lighting, is serious stuff for experienced IFR pilots let alone trainee pilots. . Before being sent solo at night under those conditions, a student should be certified as thoroughly competent at night instrument flying including low altitude go-arounds from the flare with everything hanging out (flaps and landing gear).
Nothing said here implies that happened on this occasion. But is a general warning to instructors that night instrument flying skill is so vital to student pilots undergoing night circuit training as well as night VFR cross-country flights.
Homesick-Angel, you should share those learning gems. Got some references and links..
Canley Vale - PGW
Also
North of melbourne - YJB(i think that was the call sign?)-GAMs
What I took out of them is my business just as you may get something totally different.. or nothing.. But plenty was discussed in the threads and as I said before, some of the discussions had a profound effect on me..
Last edited by Homesick-Angel; 24th Sep 2013 at 14:10.
I've had a few really solid learnings from prune over the years as well HSA.
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that some of them have kept me out of real strife either.
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that some of them have kept me out of real strife either.
Flying Binghi
Quotes:
"...Nothing said here implies that happened on this occasion... " (Centaurus)
"Uh-huh... so why post it to this thread then.."
FB . .. . . you are missing Centaurus's point altogether.
It is the idle speculators who clutter up these and similar forums with claptrap. As an old time Australian flying lawyer once said to his client to be -
"You just sit on your hands son and keep your trap shut till I get there."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
RE the potential for the loss of horizon at night, the final report on the loss of the ABC TV Squirrel is due any day now. Many there are who are hoping ATSB have found something concrete .
from the ATSB website -
On 18 August 2011, an Aérospatiale Industries AS355F2 helicopter, registered VH-NTV, was operating in an area east of Lake Eyre, South Australia (SA). On board were the pilot and two passengers. The helicopter landed on an island in the Cooper Creek inlet, about 145 km north of Marree, SA, at about 1715 Central Standard Time.
At about 1900, the helicopter departed the island, and soon after takeoff it collided with terrain. The pilot and the two passengers were fatally injured, and the helicopter was destroyed by the impact forces and a fuel-fed fire.
Updated 19 July 2013
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) received the results of the flight simulations and modelling that were previously advised as being conducted by external specialists in June 2012. The ATSB is now finalising its draft report, which will be sent to directly involved parties and other parties with an interest in July/August 2013. Feedback from those parties on the factual accuracy of the draft report over the 28-day DIP period will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in September/October 2013.
Updated 9 July 2013
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) received the results of simulations and modelling conducted by external specialists in June 2012. The ATSB is now finalising its draft report, which will be sent to directly involved parties and other parties with an interest in July/August 2013. The final report will be publicly released in September/October 2013.
Quotes:
"...Nothing said here implies that happened on this occasion... " (Centaurus)
"Uh-huh... so why post it to this thread then.."
FB . .. . . you are missing Centaurus's point altogether.
It is the idle speculators who clutter up these and similar forums with claptrap. As an old time Australian flying lawyer once said to his client to be -
"You just sit on your hands son and keep your trap shut till I get there."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
RE the potential for the loss of horizon at night, the final report on the loss of the ABC TV Squirrel is due any day now. Many there are who are hoping ATSB have found something concrete .
from the ATSB website -
On 18 August 2011, an Aérospatiale Industries AS355F2 helicopter, registered VH-NTV, was operating in an area east of Lake Eyre, South Australia (SA). On board were the pilot and two passengers. The helicopter landed on an island in the Cooper Creek inlet, about 145 km north of Marree, SA, at about 1715 Central Standard Time.
At about 1900, the helicopter departed the island, and soon after takeoff it collided with terrain. The pilot and the two passengers were fatally injured, and the helicopter was destroyed by the impact forces and a fuel-fed fire.
Updated 19 July 2013
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) received the results of the flight simulations and modelling that were previously advised as being conducted by external specialists in June 2012. The ATSB is now finalising its draft report, which will be sent to directly involved parties and other parties with an interest in July/August 2013. Feedback from those parties on the factual accuracy of the draft report over the 28-day DIP period will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in September/October 2013.
Updated 9 July 2013
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) received the results of simulations and modelling conducted by external specialists in June 2012. The ATSB is now finalising its draft report, which will be sent to directly involved parties and other parties with an interest in July/August 2013. The final report will be publicly released in September/October 2013.
Last edited by Fantome; 26th Sep 2013 at 01:28.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the truest maxims that I have heard in aviation is ...."that you learn from the mistakes of others as you won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
Learning of others experiences is, to a large extent, one of the better things about PPRuNe. There can also be a lot of rubbish on this site but we are supposedly intelligent adults with the ability to sort out the gems from the dross. Intelligent debate without the need to resort to personal attacks should be the standard.
As to night flying, my personal wake-up call came when I nearly turned a Partenavia on its back turning left base for runway 30 at Alice Springs. North of the runway there are plenty of lights, south of it its as black as a witches heart. Half way around the turn (a delightfully balanced rate 1) I was shocked to see the angle of back was about 50 deg and increasing. I should have known better. I was taught better to fly the circuit on instruments until the runway was in sight ahead. I had dropped the ball at the end of a long day and vowed that it would never happen again.
I am not saying that is what happened in Hamilton the other night, just adding my own experience so that someone may learn from it. My sympathies are extended to his family and to the Sharp group, some of whom I met yesterday as part of my job.
Learning of others experiences is, to a large extent, one of the better things about PPRuNe. There can also be a lot of rubbish on this site but we are supposedly intelligent adults with the ability to sort out the gems from the dross. Intelligent debate without the need to resort to personal attacks should be the standard.
As to night flying, my personal wake-up call came when I nearly turned a Partenavia on its back turning left base for runway 30 at Alice Springs. North of the runway there are plenty of lights, south of it its as black as a witches heart. Half way around the turn (a delightfully balanced rate 1) I was shocked to see the angle of back was about 50 deg and increasing. I should have known better. I was taught better to fly the circuit on instruments until the runway was in sight ahead. I had dropped the ball at the end of a long day and vowed that it would never happen again.
I am not saying that is what happened in Hamilton the other night, just adding my own experience so that someone may learn from it. My sympathies are extended to his family and to the Sharp group, some of whom I met yesterday as part of my job.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying Binghi, you seem to have an issue here where you are attacking everyone.
Can you please tone it down a little and offer constructive feedback versus tirades? There is much to learnt by many here by discussing this, particularly those just starting out their night rating or flying in general.
Thank you!
Can you please tone it down a little and offer constructive feedback versus tirades? There is much to learnt by many here by discussing this, particularly those just starting out their night rating or flying in general.
Thank you!
'crikeys' we can do our best/try to respect the families wishes here thru yr requests but as I said (or words to that effect) in my earlier post perhaps we can learn something of this tragic event & closing the thread will only have flyers scratching their heads wondering even more, not knowing & doubt are pretty powerful things that achieves nothing.
Look no doubt the 'unbiased' mod/s will close this thread we have seen that happen many a time here but I do hope that at least one young aviator out there with similar experience & intentions can take something from this thread & learn, after-all we ALL learn from others misfortunes.
The news media will report inaccurate facts anyway their experts at that regardless of this forum so we can't just close, delete, or pretend this didn't happen as we are ALL involved now, directly or indirectly.
Perhaps we could just talk about past experiences, discuss previous events similar to this one (as as has been the case thus far) & I think the majority here are in favour of keeping the discussion alive & for good reasons.
We all grieve in our own different way but we also need to understand.
Wmk2
Look no doubt the 'unbiased' mod/s will close this thread we have seen that happen many a time here but I do hope that at least one young aviator out there with similar experience & intentions can take something from this thread & learn, after-all we ALL learn from others misfortunes.
The news media will report inaccurate facts anyway their experts at that regardless of this forum so we can't just close, delete, or pretend this didn't happen as we are ALL involved now, directly or indirectly.
Perhaps we could just talk about past experiences, discuss previous events similar to this one (as as has been the case thus far) & I think the majority here are in favour of keeping the discussion alive & for good reasons.
We all grieve in our own different way but we also need to understand.
Wmk2
There's nothing disrespectful about discussing an accident if, as Wally says, it's done respectfully.
When one happens, the natural reaction of any pilot is to ask "What went wrong, and why?" This leads to conjecture about possible causes, similar events, near-miss type experiences we've all probably had.
No-one can assign blame, and that's not the aim - it's to put together a mental picture of what might have gone on; a reminder to ourselves and others of what can happen, and what steps we ourselves can take to make sure we fly as safely as possible.
A sad event like this is terrible for the family and friends, of course, but I don't think it's presuming too much to suggest they'd want others to learn from it.
When one happens, the natural reaction of any pilot is to ask "What went wrong, and why?" This leads to conjecture about possible causes, similar events, near-miss type experiences we've all probably had.
No-one can assign blame, and that's not the aim - it's to put together a mental picture of what might have gone on; a reminder to ourselves and others of what can happen, and what steps we ourselves can take to make sure we fly as safely as possible.
A sad event like this is terrible for the family and friends, of course, but I don't think it's presuming too much to suggest they'd want others to learn from it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well FB all I can say is that I'm glad you hold so much faith in the investigating authority that you will get a definitive answer.
As the FTDK once said, words like, pilots have been crashing aircraft since they were invented and rarely does anyone invent a new way of doing it...
As the FTDK once said, words like, pilots have been crashing aircraft since they were invented and rarely does anyone invent a new way of doing it...
spot on again old son . . . . long gone are the days when our accident investigators came with such a depth of experience and know-how they
could get to the nub and the cause while the new boys could only scratch
their heads in wonderment at the intuition, and good old monkey cunning
of men who had been to more crash sites in war and peace than the sprogs had years from the cradle.
This is probably not the place for any of us to air the first-hand knowledge that some of us do have of closed investigations that failed dismally to reveal (or admit) primary evidence of what could reasonably be deduced to have led to the accident/incident.
Let us not bicker. Let this thread be maintained with posts that expand everyone's comprehension of whatever facets of airmanship and air safety
the discussion may throw up. What Centaurus said and what PLovett said
are not the idle comments of fledgling aviators. These are pilots who have run the yards, and are still doing so. Read back through their numerous posts on the maintenance of flying skills and the essence of good airmanship and you will not only find hard-won knowledge but that core of respect and humility that writer/airmen such as EK Gann possessed and conveyed with passion, conviction and total credibility.
could get to the nub and the cause while the new boys could only scratch
their heads in wonderment at the intuition, and good old monkey cunning
of men who had been to more crash sites in war and peace than the sprogs had years from the cradle.
This is probably not the place for any of us to air the first-hand knowledge that some of us do have of closed investigations that failed dismally to reveal (or admit) primary evidence of what could reasonably be deduced to have led to the accident/incident.
Let us not bicker. Let this thread be maintained with posts that expand everyone's comprehension of whatever facets of airmanship and air safety
the discussion may throw up. What Centaurus said and what PLovett said
are not the idle comments of fledgling aviators. These are pilots who have run the yards, and are still doing so. Read back through their numerous posts on the maintenance of flying skills and the essence of good airmanship and you will not only find hard-won knowledge but that core of respect and humility that writer/airmen such as EK Gann possessed and conveyed with passion, conviction and total credibility.
Last edited by Fantome; 25th Sep 2013 at 20:34.
via VH-XXX:
Well FB all I can say is that I'm glad you hold so much faith in the investigating authority that you will get a definitive answer.
As the FTDK once said, words like, pilots have been crashing aircraft since they were invented and rarely does anyone invent a new way of doing it...
Well FB all I can say is that I'm glad you hold so much faith in the investigating authority that you will get a definitive answer.
As the FTDK once said, words like, pilots have been crashing aircraft since they were invented and rarely does anyone invent a new way of doing it...
.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What was the mistake the subject pilot of this thread made ? Do we have an ATSB report to make some educated comments about ?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is abundantly clear that FLYING BINGHI is simply trolling for trouble. We should simply ignore him or her and move on with worthwhile discussion. I'm not quite sure what he/she is trying to prove. Perhaps he/she is from Victoria where it is currently school holidays.
'FB' I think you may be in the minority here old chap
In fact reading thru the posts here you may very well be alone in yr thoughts but hey we are all entitled to an opinion here as like you say ........."shouldn't we have an accident report first?"..........well we have had the accident & now awaiting the report (which will take ages) could mean this sad event will be lost in the minds of those that might very well be at the same risk so how about we all nicely chat about the effects of NVMC flying & throw some ideas/thoughts into the mix here as there are a lot of highly experienced drivers amongst us whom have wisdom to share.
We need not mention this actual event again but to make sure this guys life is not in vain he has at least opened our minds to thought provoking discussions & if it puts just one tiny bit of doubt in a flyers mind out there as to whether he feels confident to fly black hole type flying in VMC & then seeks further help/instruction then our now gone aviator has left a life long legacy.
Wmk2
In fact reading thru the posts here you may very well be alone in yr thoughts but hey we are all entitled to an opinion here as like you say ........."shouldn't we have an accident report first?"..........well we have had the accident & now awaiting the report (which will take ages) could mean this sad event will be lost in the minds of those that might very well be at the same risk so how about we all nicely chat about the effects of NVMC flying & throw some ideas/thoughts into the mix here as there are a lot of highly experienced drivers amongst us whom have wisdom to share.We need not mention this actual event again but to make sure this guys life is not in vain he has at least opened our minds to thought provoking discussions & if it puts just one tiny bit of doubt in a flyers mind out there as to whether he feels confident to fly black hole type flying in VMC & then seeks further help/instruction then our now gone aviator has left a life long legacy.
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 25th Sep 2013 at 06:15.
