Charter Operators applying for RPT
I didn't want to buy in on a subject which for me is long dead and buried, but remains a monument to CASA incompetence and inconsistency.
What is the safety difference between transporting remote, rural families and their mail and supplies and transporting a very limited number of adventurous tourists to subsidise the operation?
Well before your time Creamie, DCA and CASA agreed the Cape York Mail Services could carry limited tourists for a variety of reasons. Then in June 1999 an OLC lawyer issued a document titled "GAOB Policy Position - Classification of Charter/RPT Operations" which interestingly made the statement "The proper interpretation of these provisions continues to be the subject of controversy". That policy document effectively also denied remote community residents access to their essential air services. (That document was one of a number of similar but varying "policy documents" and "interpretations" issued by various CASA lawyers.)
CASA failed to provide their regulatory decision to operators but immediately moved to the administrative Show Cause process, costing dozens of employees their jobs, costing many air operators hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost income, disrupting the sole transport services available to many remote residents for arguably, no safety related gain.
Interestingly, CASA Darwin adopted a rational common sense approach and authorised essential mail services within their jurisdiction.
Correct or not, that June 1999 CASA document would have far reaching impact on air services to remote rural communities. Had CASA confidence in their opinion, they would have cancelled the AOC of an operation I had involvement with. To the contrary, the AOC was restored and after essential operational changes to the CAOs, issued that operator with an RPT AOC.
And here the aviation industry is, 15 years and over $250 million in regulatory reform costs later, still with the same ludicrous and meaningless CAR206...........
That is my perspective, you are entitled to yours. Not interested in again debating the subject, which is long dead and buried.
Leadie. Athol and Rex Townley were wonderful men and family friends. Athol was the principal of Sidwell & Townley, Pharmacists and our family chemist. He had a very distinguished Naval record in World War II, including assisting in sinking a midget submarine on Sydney Harbour and commanding Fairmile motor launches in New Guinea. Rex Townley also entered politics, becoming Leader of the Opposition in Tasmania.
What prompted the regulator’s action in 1999 was the advertisements that invited any member of the public to pay to get on board
Well before your time Creamie, DCA and CASA agreed the Cape York Mail Services could carry limited tourists for a variety of reasons. Then in June 1999 an OLC lawyer issued a document titled "GAOB Policy Position - Classification of Charter/RPT Operations" which interestingly made the statement "The proper interpretation of these provisions continues to be the subject of controversy". That policy document effectively also denied remote community residents access to their essential air services. (That document was one of a number of similar but varying "policy documents" and "interpretations" issued by various CASA lawyers.)
CASA failed to provide their regulatory decision to operators but immediately moved to the administrative Show Cause process, costing dozens of employees their jobs, costing many air operators hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost income, disrupting the sole transport services available to many remote residents for arguably, no safety related gain.
Interestingly, CASA Darwin adopted a rational common sense approach and authorised essential mail services within their jurisdiction.
Correct or not, that June 1999 CASA document would have far reaching impact on air services to remote rural communities. Had CASA confidence in their opinion, they would have cancelled the AOC of an operation I had involvement with. To the contrary, the AOC was restored and after essential operational changes to the CAOs, issued that operator with an RPT AOC.
And here the aviation industry is, 15 years and over $250 million in regulatory reform costs later, still with the same ludicrous and meaningless CAR206...........
That is my perspective, you are entitled to yours. Not interested in again debating the subject, which is long dead and buried.
Leadie. Athol and Rex Townley were wonderful men and family friends. Athol was the principal of Sidwell & Townley, Pharmacists and our family chemist. He had a very distinguished Naval record in World War II, including assisting in sinking a midget submarine on Sydney Harbour and commanding Fairmile motor launches in New Guinea. Rex Townley also entered politics, becoming Leader of the Opposition in Tasmania.
Last edited by Torres; 27th Aug 2013 at 21:38.
What is the safety difference between transporting remote, rural families and their mail and supplies and transporting a very limited number of adventurous tourists to subsidise the operation?
That’s one of the many stupidities of the classification of operation rules, and one of the reasons for Commission Staunton’s recommendation in 1996 that “urgent” consideration be given to clearing up 206.
Under the then-and-still-current classification rules, that fact is that as soon as seats were made available to the public generally – you describe it as “a very limited number of adventurous tourists” to avoid the reality – it became RPT. The government did not want to do anything about it by changing the rules or increasing the subsidy.
Don’t blame the people whose job it was to enforce the rules (and whose decisions, by the way, were upheld on external review).
Blame the people who’ve allowed the classification of operations rules to remain a complicated, counter-intuitive dog’s breakfast for decades.
I respect your opinion as I trust you will respect mine.
It was an opportunity for a very limited number of people to participate in a rather unique Australian rural service. I respect your opinion it was an RPT operation, supported by Commissioner Staunton's decision, as I trust you will respect my opinion that it was not RPT, which is supported by Commissioner Fice and a number of CASA employees at that time, including the DFOM Darwin and a number of FOIs in Canberra and the State offices.
How many millions of dollars of tax payers funds has CASA p!ssed against the wall in barrister and QC retainers, legal costs, consulting fees etc, not including the millions of dollars in costs and lost revenue by air service providers, solely for CASA to attempt to impose it's ever changing, illogical interpretation of an indecipherable and inappropriate regulation - rather than replacing the regulation years ago with a clear, concise regulation suitable for the needs of all Australians?
CAR206 always was an incomprehensible dog's breakfast since it was illogically and inappropriately migrated from the pre 1988 ANRs. It is a monument to CASA's incompetence that it was not replaced during the past 25 years.
All water under the bridge. Long since dead and buried. I wish you all the best Creamie!
"....you describe it as “a very limited number of adventurous tourists” to avoid the reality – it became RPT."
How many millions of dollars of tax payers funds has CASA p!ssed against the wall in barrister and QC retainers, legal costs, consulting fees etc, not including the millions of dollars in costs and lost revenue by air service providers, solely for CASA to attempt to impose it's ever changing, illogical interpretation of an indecipherable and inappropriate regulation - rather than replacing the regulation years ago with a clear, concise regulation suitable for the needs of all Australians?
CAR206 always was an incomprehensible dog's breakfast since it was illogically and inappropriately migrated from the pre 1988 ANRs. It is a monument to CASA's incompetence that it was not replaced during the past 25 years.
All water under the bridge. Long since dead and buried. I wish you all the best Creamie!
Last edited by Torres; 27th Aug 2013 at 23:49.
ARE YOU MAKING NOISE ABOUT THIS?
OK so we all sit on PPRuNe and piss and moan about how CASA's general incompetence is destroying our industry.
Many of these posts are extremely well written.
Have any of you contacted Warren Truss (the next Transport Minister) to express your fear for the industry - a VIABLE industry which is being made UNVIABLE purely through political indifference?
...how many people are employed in the Aviation industry in each state?
...why the hell don't we have a political voice in this country?
...where the hell is RAAA and AOPA on this?
I have written to my local member, to Warren Truss, and to aviation-minded MPs and Senators. (Didn't bother writing to Albo). I have donated $ to Nick Xenophon.
...but I am only one person employing less than 20 voters. What are YOU doing to save YOUR industry?
Many of these posts are extremely well written.
Have any of you contacted Warren Truss (the next Transport Minister) to express your fear for the industry - a VIABLE industry which is being made UNVIABLE purely through political indifference?
...how many people are employed in the Aviation industry in each state?
...why the hell don't we have a political voice in this country?
...where the hell is RAAA and AOPA on this?
I have written to my local member, to Warren Truss, and to aviation-minded MPs and Senators. (Didn't bother writing to Albo). I have donated $ to Nick Xenophon.
...but I am only one person employing less than 20 voters. What are YOU doing to save YOUR industry?
I'm not sitting here moaning about CASA's incompetence destroying the general aviation industry.
Over a decade ago I made the most logical decision possible, I walked in disgust and commenced another very successful and highly rewarding career. I left behind a thirty year general aviation and regional airline career with a clear conscience and pride in my achievements.
Hahahahahaha! 
Surely you jest Shirley? Another cast in the Anderson mould - why do you think he cares? 
I'm a Life Member of the Party and can't influence change.
I only hope Prime Minister Abbott actually appoints someone interested in transport and civil aviation post September 7.
Over a decade ago I made the most logical decision possible, I walked in disgust and commenced another very successful and highly rewarding career. I left behind a thirty year general aviation and regional airline career with a clear conscience and pride in my achievements.
Have any of you contacted Warren Truss (the next Transport Minister) to express your fear for the industry...
Surely you jest Shirley? Another cast in the Anderson mould - why do you think he cares? I'm a Life Member of the Party and can't influence change.I only hope Prime Minister Abbott actually appoints someone interested in transport and civil aviation post September 7.
Last edited by Torres; 28th Aug 2013 at 06:14.
Forgive my passion - maybe its because I am still young.
...even if only when compared to cynical old farts like you.
...even if only when compared to cynical old farts like you.
Ah yes, the passion that burned within me for thirty years. I think a few miscreants and under achievers at CASA p!ssed on and extinguished the flame.
Horatio, I know you have the passion and have been successful in your career. But there are too few votes employed within the aviation industry to cause change. Not until our rural Aussie residents start to make noises about loss of their air services will any politician take notice.
Meanwhile the bashings from CASA will continue until moral improves!
Horatio, I know you have the passion and have been successful in your career. But there are too few votes employed within the aviation industry to cause change. Not until our rural Aussie residents start to make noises about loss of their air services will any politician take notice.
Meanwhile the bashings from CASA will continue until moral improves!
Last edited by Torres; 28th Aug 2013 at 06:20.
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HL, yep same here, started at the bottom and worked my way to the top with letters, and in person, to all and sundry. I have submitted numerous replies to white papers, NPR's, etc. Have canvassed ombudsmen and commissioners over different issues over the years. Have been a member of AOPA and sought help on a few occasions. Apart from a few minor wins along the way all my efforts doesn't seem to have helped my company.
That's why I have ended up here on PPRune, not that I like it as a complaining bitch fest, but I really do think that if we all can call it like it is, (with the help of some anonymity) so the real truth and facts can come out, in other words a real whistle blowers forum that has a modicum of respect, it maybe heard.
It has been shown in the past not holding back and being a whistle blower in public will bring retribution upon you and your company without a resolution of the problem.
My hope is that just maybe, some one out there may start to listen. Or at least we can warn those new to the industry not to make the same mistakes we have. History is a great teacher. Share your stories they need to be told.
Maybe if enough smoke comes from forums like this, then just maybe a Journo, public servant or someone with a higher profile may come to our industries aid.(can always dream anyway)
It is very sad to see GA dying, an industry drowning in over regulation and fear, bullied by people that really, have never had to be accountable to a profit margin or ever run their own business telling us how to run ours. Never any thought, ever seems to go into any decision made by CASA on how their decision will financially impact the operators, as show by some of the decisions over the last 20 years or so.
We can only hope that maybe one day we can get a minister that has a interest in Aviation in charge, Preferable an ex Pilot. So to all PPRuners out there, if you are currently running for parliament or have aspirations of running don't forget us when you make it to the top.
Remember GA is the front line, and first step usually in this industry, its the start for new pilots going onto bigger and faster things, and to a certain extent is also the canary in the coal mine.
I am not that naïve that I think its all going to be good, and fixed with a silver bullet, but if we can all start saying enough, it maybe a small start. Write to your MP and your local papers. Go to CASA forums and have your say, submit your ideas on new rules and regs when asked to, no matter if you are a PPL,CPL,ATPL or just a baggage handler or desk jockey be heard its your industry.
That's why I have ended up here on PPRune, not that I like it as a complaining bitch fest, but I really do think that if we all can call it like it is, (with the help of some anonymity) so the real truth and facts can come out, in other words a real whistle blowers forum that has a modicum of respect, it maybe heard.
It has been shown in the past not holding back and being a whistle blower in public will bring retribution upon you and your company without a resolution of the problem.
My hope is that just maybe, some one out there may start to listen. Or at least we can warn those new to the industry not to make the same mistakes we have. History is a great teacher. Share your stories they need to be told.
Maybe if enough smoke comes from forums like this, then just maybe a Journo, public servant or someone with a higher profile may come to our industries aid.(can always dream anyway)
It is very sad to see GA dying, an industry drowning in over regulation and fear, bullied by people that really, have never had to be accountable to a profit margin or ever run their own business telling us how to run ours. Never any thought, ever seems to go into any decision made by CASA on how their decision will financially impact the operators, as show by some of the decisions over the last 20 years or so.
We can only hope that maybe one day we can get a minister that has a interest in Aviation in charge, Preferable an ex Pilot. So to all PPRuners out there, if you are currently running for parliament or have aspirations of running don't forget us when you make it to the top.
Remember GA is the front line, and first step usually in this industry, its the start for new pilots going onto bigger and faster things, and to a certain extent is also the canary in the coal mine.
I am not that naïve that I think its all going to be good, and fixed with a silver bullet, but if we can all start saying enough, it maybe a small start. Write to your MP and your local papers. Go to CASA forums and have your say, submit your ideas on new rules and regs when asked to, no matter if you are a PPL,CPL,ATPL or just a baggage handler or desk jockey be heard its your industry.
After flying with a union guy who had some experience on rule making committees with CASA I walked away shaking my head. You can submit all you want CASA will just say 'thanks for your input' and then do whatever they were going to do in the first place.
They effectively ignore the industry committees so I don't think community input will change their ideas.
They effectively ignore the industry committees so I don't think community input will change their ideas.
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A walk on hot coals
HLB #24 "OK so we all sit on PPRuNe and piss and moan about how CASA's general incompetence is destroying our industry."
MSD # 28 –"We can only hope that maybe one day we can get a minister that has a interest in Aviation in charge".
Remember, Pel Air was a single issue ticket, one way, and look where that got to. Tip of the iceberg?, sure but at least they know now there is one. Should we be lucky enough to have the likes of D. Fawcett esq. pick up sticks, then things will change, but if we get lumbered with a party hack; then, it's time to join Torres and sit in the sun, drinking beer and throwing rocks at the traffic.
So, in short we need a platform (Senate inquiry), someone to listen (Committee) and someone with enough juice, savvy and interest to affect the changes which must be made. It's a big ask kids, huge. It takes time, it will take even longer again to rid the department of the legacy the current mandarins have installed. It's deep, dark and dirty; only from the top down reform can fix it, the evidence is there; it's a question now of getting a fair hearing.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Last edited by Kharon; 28th Aug 2013 at 20:57. Reason: Entertaining some strange, exotic flu germ visitors – Yuk.
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Kharon
hear, hear, well said.
Bit more philosophy.
History teaches discontent always starts with the masses. Scream loud enough on mass, someone will hear.
hear, hear, well said.
Bit more philosophy.
History teaches discontent always starts with the masses. Scream loud enough on mass, someone will hear.
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Bureaucracy alive and stronger by the day.
Quote:
where the hell is RAAA and AOPA on this?
Regretfully they are in bed with CASA
This is not a fair assessment. Why are they in bed with CAsA? RAAA only operates by the grace of CAsA whereas AOPA is made up of pilots all reliant on CAsA for their permits to fly. Apparently most have never heard of reprisal actions, well wake up it forms the basis of most systemically corrupt systems. Why would CAsA as a bureaucracy be any different. They have the power!
Wake up Australia! We live in a bureaucracy, not unlike the former Eastern European countries. Democratic processes are for show. How many of our elected representatives have actual expertise to debate their respective ministries? Majority are lawyers, what does that say?
At least there are a few who will tell it as it is, the likes of Ben Sandilands and Paul Phelan but we support them anonymously , maybe time to stand up and be counted. There are many no longer in the industry but still supportive via PPrune why not come "out" and support action. Strange how the Anzac spirit only ignites outside our borders. Apathy is alive and well and CAsA love it.
where the hell is RAAA and AOPA on this?
Regretfully they are in bed with CASA
This is not a fair assessment. Why are they in bed with CAsA? RAAA only operates by the grace of CAsA whereas AOPA is made up of pilots all reliant on CAsA for their permits to fly. Apparently most have never heard of reprisal actions, well wake up it forms the basis of most systemically corrupt systems. Why would CAsA as a bureaucracy be any different. They have the power!
Wake up Australia! We live in a bureaucracy, not unlike the former Eastern European countries. Democratic processes are for show. How many of our elected representatives have actual expertise to debate their respective ministries? Majority are lawyers, what does that say?
At least there are a few who will tell it as it is, the likes of Ben Sandilands and Paul Phelan but we support them anonymously , maybe time to stand up and be counted. There are many no longer in the industry but still supportive via PPrune why not come "out" and support action. Strange how the Anzac spirit only ignites outside our borders. Apathy is alive and well and CAsA love it.
Stasi, you tell me it is not a fair assesment, then in your post you describe it as a fair assesment. Yes, these organisations by taking a softly softly approach are indeed in bed with CASA. These organisations also seem ignorant of the forthcoming election.
Curently, yes CASA holds the power and these organisations go along with it. The current RAAA web site has nothing on it regarding onerous legislation and AOPA have a tame article five items down the list behind safety seminar publicity. AOPA fail to realise that safety is a non issue compared to the survival of GA.
Where is the unity? Where is the militancy? The diversity of pilots makes them their own worse enemy.
I stand by my comment. Until I see these organisations organise demonstrations like say a slow drive through of of capital city airports at peak hour or an enmass fly past nothing will happen. Pilots are a minority but so are Gays, just look at where a bit of militancy has got them.
Curently, yes CASA holds the power and these organisations go along with it. The current RAAA web site has nothing on it regarding onerous legislation and AOPA have a tame article five items down the list behind safety seminar publicity. AOPA fail to realise that safety is a non issue compared to the survival of GA.
Where is the unity? Where is the militancy? The diversity of pilots makes them their own worse enemy.
I stand by my comment. Until I see these organisations organise demonstrations like say a slow drive through of of capital city airports at peak hour or an enmass fly past nothing will happen. Pilots are a minority but so are Gays, just look at where a bit of militancy has got them.
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not a fair assessment!
Stasi, you tell me it is not a fair assessment, then in your post you describe it as a fair assessment. Yes, these organisations by taking a softly softly approach are indeed in bed with CASA.
These organisations also seem ignorant of the forthcoming election.
from the RAAA website: CASA Regulatory Costs
Something clearly has to be done about excessively high regulatory costs. The costs are artificially high because much of what CASA does has no safety benefit, and should therefore be abandoned, but field officers seem unable to let go of functions they once performed, even when it is evident that those functions are valueless, and while high priority tasks are either not performed at all or are delayed typically by six months or more, allegedly because of a “lack of resources”. Yet CASA seems disinterested in becoming more efficient. After all, when it can simply charge industry whatever it costs to run its regulatory services, why should it? It is becoming increasingly clear that only an external review will resolve the unjustifiable costs that CASA imposes on the industry.
Something clearly has to be done about excessively high regulatory costs. The costs are artificially high because much of what CASA does has no safety benefit, and should therefore be abandoned, but field officers seem unable to let go of functions they once performed, even when it is evident that those functions are valueless, and while high priority tasks are either not performed at all or are delayed typically by six months or more, allegedly because of a “lack of resources”. Yet CASA seems disinterested in becoming more efficient. After all, when it can simply charge industry whatever it costs to run its regulatory services, why should it? It is becoming increasingly clear that only an external review will resolve the unjustifiable costs that CASA imposes on the industry.
As to your
Pilots are a minority but so are Gays, just look at where a bit of militancy has got them.
if we all came out (in aviation terms) on this site it would be a first step to get acceptance. We have the means on sites like Pro Aviation | Sharp End Aviation News and Features and am sure Ben Sandilands would take up more of our causes.
S.H.
Bob, GA affects far too few people directly - the vast unwashed masses would be barely aware and if they are think you're flying VWs with wings on the weekend for fun. You're not going to get any leverage by being militant - how would your militancy affect your average suburban voter? Pissing people off who don't already have a clue who you are just pisses them off.
Why should they care about GA? Until they do, any grand gestures will count for nothing. You need to find a friend in high place willing to push your barrow.
Why should they care about GA? Until they do, any grand gestures will count for nothing. You need to find a friend in high place willing to push your barrow.
Militantcy will simply result in a string of show cause notices regarding "fit and proper person" status, unless you are extremely clever and well organised.
The first thing you could do is agree not to charter to politicians who don't endorse action.
The first thing you could do is agree not to charter to politicians who don't endorse action.
The first thing you could do is agree not to charter to politicians who don't endorse action.
It is akin to a CPL standing up to an employer for safety, pay or any other reason. No problem, half a dozen behind you mate ready to do it and keep their mouths shut.
how would your militancy affect your average suburban voter?
Just don't carry mail.