Latest AFAP job ad.
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Latest AFAP job ad.
Some skydive outfit, ADVERTISING a PPL as an acceptable minimum?
Is this essentially advertising that they are not intending to pay their pilot, as well as being a not for profit drop zone?
I'm surprised AFAP accepted a job ad with a PPL minimum listed.
Why skydive ops are exempt from needing an AOC is beyond me.
Skydive Central Queensland
Skydive Central Queensland is a drop zone that operates on weekends located between Rockhampton and Gladstone and is the only one in the area.
Looking for hours or something to do on weekends, this may be for you.
Central Queensland 55km from Gladstone and 65km from Rockhampton.
Cessna 182 and 206
Minimum Qualifications:
PPL or CPL
200hrs TT
100 PIC
10 hrs on type Cessna 182
Class 2 medical or better
Skydive Central Queensland is a drop zone that operates on weekends located between Rockhampton and Gladstone and is the only one in the area.
Looking for hours or something to do on weekends, this may be for you.
Central Queensland 55km from Gladstone and 65km from Rockhampton.
Cessna 182 and 206
Minimum Qualifications:
PPL or CPL
200hrs TT
100 PIC
10 hrs on type Cessna 182
Class 2 medical or better
I'm surprised AFAP accepted a job ad with a PPL minimum listed.
Why skydive ops are exempt from needing an AOC is beyond me.
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I think these are the hours needed as a minimum unless its changed
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft used for parachuting must have at least:
(i) A private pilot licence without area restriction, and two hundred (200) hours total aeronautical experience, of which at one hundred (100) hours must be as pilot in command, or
(ii) An APF Certificate D, and a private pilot licence without area restriction, and one hundred and twenty (120) hours total aeronautical experience of which seventy (70) hours must be as a pilot in command.
(b) 10 hours on the particular aircraft type or an aircraft type of similar performance, weight and operational complexity.
(c) Effective from 01 June 2010, a Jump Pilot authorization, issued by the APF
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft used for parachuting must have at least:
(i) A private pilot licence without area restriction, and two hundred (200) hours total aeronautical experience, of which at one hundred (100) hours must be as pilot in command, or
(ii) An APF Certificate D, and a private pilot licence without area restriction, and one hundred and twenty (120) hours total aeronautical experience of which seventy (70) hours must be as a pilot in command.
(b) 10 hours on the particular aircraft type or an aircraft type of similar performance, weight and operational complexity.
(c) Effective from 01 June 2010, a Jump Pilot authorization, issued by the APF
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Poon, you're a hack. Get your facts straight before posting. What would be the benefit of forcing AOCs upon dropzones? I'm not exactly how it came to be that skydiving ops are not classed as commercial but thank god thats the way it is. I'm guessing you also have a problem with people selling joyflights in AWAL aircraft? After all, you dont need an AOC to do that. To think people want to see more redtape...
What would be the benefit of forcing AOCs upon dropzones? I'm not exactly how it came to be that skydiving ops are not classed as commercial but thank god thats the way it is.
XXXX had no previous experience flying parachuting operations and no commercial experience when he commenced with the Brisbane Skydiving Centre on 1 July 2005. When he commenced flying the Cessna 206 on parachuting sorties on 30 July, he had not yet accrued ten hours flying time on type as required by the APF operational regulations. However, YYYY considered he was sufficiently trained and capable of flying the Cessna 206. He said further that he had supervised and coached the pilot during several of his early parachuting flights.
It is clear that YYYY did not consider that, as the owner of the aircraft and the operator of the Brisbane Skydiving Centre, he had any formal training role; nor did he provide for any recurrent training or checking of pilots used in the business. Because the skydiving business was able to operate without an air operator’s certificate (AOC), YYYY was not required to have a chief pilot appointed; nor were there any requirements for a Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) approved testing officer or a check to line system to be employed.
The ATSB report notes there was no evidence that XXXX had completed a knowledge check on the incident aircraft in accordance with the APF’s jump pilots handbook and aircraft operation procedures manual or that appropriately documented emergency procedures were available for the modified Cessna 2O6 aircraft.
It is clear that YYYY did not consider that, as the owner of the aircraft and the operator of the Brisbane Skydiving Centre, he had any formal training role; nor did he provide for any recurrent training or checking of pilots used in the business. Because the skydiving business was able to operate without an air operator’s certificate (AOC), YYYY was not required to have a chief pilot appointed; nor were there any requirements for a Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) approved testing officer or a check to line system to be employed.
The ATSB report notes there was no evidence that XXXX had completed a knowledge check on the incident aircraft in accordance with the APF’s jump pilots handbook and aircraft operation procedures manual or that appropriately documented emergency procedures were available for the modified Cessna 2O6 aircraft.
RIP, Nige.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 16th Aug 2013 at 05:46.
In all fairness Makeithappencaptain, go through the ATSB and have a look at the number of Sport Aviation accidents, 18 Aircraft which resulted in Fatalities, resulting in 21 Fatalities from 2002 - 2011, 344 Incidents and 31 Serious Incidents, compared to lets say Aerial Work which has 41 Aircraft involved in Fatalities resulting in 56 Fatalities, 2,587 Incidents and 134 Serious Incidents.
Admittedly for the Sports Aviation it doesn't include Accidents/Incidents per Million Hours unlike the Aerial work category does so we can't get a really good comparison, but my point is that maybe you should rethink your statement. An AOC doesn't automatically make an operation safer, nor does the lack of one make it less safe than others. Percentage wise, I wouldn't be surprised if there were just as many dodgy AOC Holders operating as there are Skydiving Operators without an AOC.
I felt compelled to type this as someone who has operated at 2 different DZs (Not a large number admittedly) and don't appreciate the implication that the work I conducted was dodgy or unsafe.
Admittedly for the Sports Aviation it doesn't include Accidents/Incidents per Million Hours unlike the Aerial work category does so we can't get a really good comparison, but my point is that maybe you should rethink your statement. An AOC doesn't automatically make an operation safer, nor does the lack of one make it less safe than others. Percentage wise, I wouldn't be surprised if there were just as many dodgy AOC Holders operating as there are Skydiving Operators without an AOC.
I felt compelled to type this as someone who has operated at 2 different DZs (Not a large number admittedly) and don't appreciate the implication that the work I conducted was dodgy or unsafe.
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Thats a terrible example. Whenever there is an accident, 99% of the time there is some form of sheer stupidity involved. AOC or not, 20.11 check or not, or any other bullsht piece of official paperwork saying 'nah guize, trust me on this one, this pilot is GOOD'.
At Willowbank they had an engine that was already showing signs it wasnt happy but they decided to continue flying whilst overloaded and thats the stupidity in this case. Whoever the pilot is, if it starts coughing on you at 100' on a 36 degree day, then you're going to have a bad time. I just can't say that had there been an AOC in place and adheard to this accident wouldn't have occurred. You could open up the next can of worms by saying maybe the pilot was pressured into flying overweight with a dodgy engine, but that happens on a regular basis at mobs issued with AOCs.
An AOC didn't save the poor nurse who was murdered by the fellow driving the Mojave. Didn't prevent a westwind from getting a bit wet at the hands of old mate.
People need to stop hiding behind the bureaucratic processes and take responsibility for coqing up.
At Willowbank they had an engine that was already showing signs it wasnt happy but they decided to continue flying whilst overloaded and thats the stupidity in this case. Whoever the pilot is, if it starts coughing on you at 100' on a 36 degree day, then you're going to have a bad time. I just can't say that had there been an AOC in place and adheard to this accident wouldn't have occurred. You could open up the next can of worms by saying maybe the pilot was pressured into flying overweight with a dodgy engine, but that happens on a regular basis at mobs issued with AOCs.
An AOC didn't save the poor nurse who was murdered by the fellow driving the Mojave. Didn't prevent a westwind from getting a bit wet at the hands of old mate.
People need to stop hiding behind the bureaucratic processes and take responsibility for coqing up.
I flew at the same DZ as my example. My friend was one of those killed. I was of the view that it was going to cost me $200 per hour to get that experience. The pilot in the example was 19, wasn't getting paid, had no super, no insurance and is DEAD. My opinions are vastly different now with a bit of hindsight.
Ixixly, your statement leaves me flabbergasted. Can you honestly say that proficiency checks, a minimum supervised period of flying before being let loose and adhering to flight and duty limits don't make an operation safer than one that has none of these features in place? If airwork is so dangerous by your reasoning, then maybe all training should be discontinued. There is no fairness or logic to your statement AT ALL!
DH, your statement that "I'm so glad no-one checks up on me" smacks of either being a DZ operator who wants free pilots or someone who does actually need the supervision. Why is my example terrible? An inexperienced pilot who didn't know any better as you put it? A Chief Pilot who did know better would certainly have given these five people a better chance.
Both of you need your heads read.
Ixixly, your statement leaves me flabbergasted. Can you honestly say that proficiency checks, a minimum supervised period of flying before being let loose and adhering to flight and duty limits don't make an operation safer than one that has none of these features in place? If airwork is so dangerous by your reasoning, then maybe all training should be discontinued. There is no fairness or logic to your statement AT ALL!
DH, your statement that "I'm so glad no-one checks up on me" smacks of either being a DZ operator who wants free pilots or someone who does actually need the supervision. Why is my example terrible? An inexperienced pilot who didn't know any better as you put it? A Chief Pilot who did know better would certainly have given these five people a better chance.
Both of you need your heads read.
If scumbag operators want to pay their pilots nothing under the guise of it's character building et al, then they deserve to be shut down.... or worse.
You don't turn up to maccas and work 12hrs for free just for the experience or character building while the owners get rich, why is it acceptable to take advantage of people who've just spent upwards of $60k looking for hrs.
I've worked in 3 drop zones, 2 of which were exceptional. Shame I can't say the same for the first.
You don't turn up to maccas and work 12hrs for free just for the experience or character building while the owners get rich, why is it acceptable to take advantage of people who've just spent upwards of $60k looking for hrs.
I've worked in 3 drop zones, 2 of which were exceptional. Shame I can't say the same for the first.
At both DZs I flew at there was all those checks done and we followed all F&D and no we didn't have AOCs at either of them. I've seen a few AOC Operators who do all the right checks on paper but in the end those hours were worth nothing as nothing useful was really passed on.
I think you've misunderstood me Makeithappencaptain. When done properly, of course the checks and training required of an AOC Operator should make them safer than someone not doing them, that wasn't my point though. My point is that simply holding an AOC does not automatically make an operation safer, nor does NOT having an AOC make an operation less safe. You're implying that because DZs don't operate with an AOC that automatically makes them less safe than Operators who do have an AOC, this is far to simplistic and misleading, it comes down to the operation itself doing things in a safe and proper manner, not simply the holding of a piece of paper.
I think you've misunderstood me Makeithappencaptain. When done properly, of course the checks and training required of an AOC Operator should make them safer than someone not doing them, that wasn't my point though. My point is that simply holding an AOC does not automatically make an operation safer, nor does NOT having an AOC make an operation less safe. You're implying that because DZs don't operate with an AOC that automatically makes them less safe than Operators who do have an AOC, this is far to simplistic and misleading, it comes down to the operation itself doing things in a safe and proper manner, not simply the holding of a piece of paper.
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Comparing Aerial Work stats to Sport Aviation stats is laughable.
One is operational flying. Getting a job done, often in challenging conditions, consistently, over and over again.
The other is not. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
One is operational flying. Getting a job done, often in challenging conditions, consistently, over and over again.
The other is not. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
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As a broke fresh 150 hour CPL I would 100% work for free to get some hours up. As far as ruining the industry or for the next people, that was done long before I started my flying training.
I am not whinging that is just how it is and I am happy (well not really) to play the game and bend over to get some hours as I have limited options for the foreseeable future.
I have spoken to my mates about this many many times and unless they have rich parents they all have the same feelings as me. Im sure there are people who feel different I just dont know any of them.
I am sure ill cop some abuse for this but I am def not alone
I am not whinging that is just how it is and I am happy (well not really) to play the game and bend over to get some hours as I have limited options for the foreseeable future.
I have spoken to my mates about this many many times and unless they have rich parents they all have the same feelings as me. Im sure there are people who feel different I just dont know any of them.
I am sure ill cop some abuse for this but I am def not alone
John, if you work for free now, how will you pay for your next endorsement, and the one after that, and the one after that!
We pilots are a weird lot. Is there any other industry where people work for nothing?
We pilots are a weird lot. Is there any other industry where people work for nothing?
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Is there any other industry where people work for nothing?
If the skydive club is prepared to let someone fly their plane with minimal hours, and they get valuable experience in return, it seems like a fair trade off