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If the skydive club is prepared to let someone fly their plane with minimal hours, and they get valuable experience in return, it seems like a fair trade off
Why is allowing a CPL holder to fly a basic aircraft such a privilege? These operators need people to fly their planes, and CPL holders are appropriately trained and qualified to do so. There is certainly no special privilege regardless of how many hours you have, in my opinion.
johnwells3366, it may be true that the industry has already been damaged by pilots before you, but there's also a sense of self worth. Paying for an endorsement or working for free might get you closer to your dream job, but you know you've played a part in damaging the interests of pilots.
As a low hour pilot, I had been offered two pilot positions within skydiving companies. One operator insisted that his hourly payment was hours in his crappa 182, the other required me to pay quite a few thousand dollars in endorsement training. Although taking either of these positions would have definitely put me forward in my career (possibly more so than now), I refuse to work for free by principle only.
Hiwaytohell, I hope you're joking.
I don't know who you know in law and medicine, but EVERY single person I know that is about to start or is in their first year as a grad nurse, Intern, or paralegal is getting paid. I can assure you it is a bloody lot more than I ever got paid in my first 10 years of aviation. If you think I'm wrong look it up - and they don't have to continually hand out money for endorsements et al either.
This is just one example of grad nurses. http://www.nursing.health.wa.gov.au/...king/wages.pdf
I don't care if it is a sport jumping club or a business. $5 per jumper per load and you've got a (probably) happily paid pilot. Finally, I'm sure you don't work for free, don't expect someone else to.
I don't know who you know in law and medicine, but EVERY single person I know that is about to start or is in their first year as a grad nurse, Intern, or paralegal is getting paid. I can assure you it is a bloody lot more than I ever got paid in my first 10 years of aviation. If you think I'm wrong look it up - and they don't have to continually hand out money for endorsements et al either.
This is just one example of grad nurses. http://www.nursing.health.wa.gov.au/...king/wages.pdf
I don't care if it is a sport jumping club or a business. $5 per jumper per load and you've got a (probably) happily paid pilot. Finally, I'm sure you don't work for free, don't expect someone else to.
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I might be wrong Ben, but sounds like you have a few more hours than 150. Congrats, I am very jealous and hope to be there soon.
"dream job" ? no just any job.
Maybe I look at it a bit different. Even flying friends around that will still probably cost me $50/hour. So I would have to throw dirt for 2 hours for that one hour. Or do some skydiving for free.
I know this is the mentality skydive operators exploit but there are not many other options.
Nah I have no guilt that I have damaged the interests of pilots as you cant damage what is already broken (yeah I know I left that one open for a few come backs)
I guess its a case of "Dont hate the player, hate the game"
"dream job" ? no just any job.
Maybe I look at it a bit different. Even flying friends around that will still probably cost me $50/hour. So I would have to throw dirt for 2 hours for that one hour. Or do some skydiving for free.
I know this is the mentality skydive operators exploit but there are not many other options.
Nah I have no guilt that I have damaged the interests of pilots as you cant damage what is already broken (yeah I know I left that one open for a few come backs)
I guess its a case of "Dont hate the player, hate the game"
For jonhwells3366 and ben_093 it depends on the DZ you're at. The first one I was at I didn't get paid but it was a club, all money went back into the club, no one was making money just covering costs so I certainly didn't mind in that case, got some good experience, met a bunch of great people and had a blast. The free beer or two at the end of the day sure helped as well! The hours I got there allowed me to get the job at my second DZ.
Second DZ I was at was a business not a club and as such I was paid per load. Each load took about 0.4, I got paid $20 a load which meant about $50/hr about 4 years ago and the boss was kind enough to even buy me lunch when we were working over lunch time! The second DZ got me where I needed to be to get my first full-time job.
There are certainly good ones out there and there are those who are looking to take advantage of Pilots, its up to each of us to decide which type each DZ is and act accordingly.
Capt Fathom, why should we be paying for endorsements in the first place?
Second DZ I was at was a business not a club and as such I was paid per load. Each load took about 0.4, I got paid $20 a load which meant about $50/hr about 4 years ago and the boss was kind enough to even buy me lunch when we were working over lunch time! The second DZ got me where I needed to be to get my first full-time job.
There are certainly good ones out there and there are those who are looking to take advantage of Pilots, its up to each of us to decide which type each DZ is and act accordingly.
Capt Fathom, why should we be paying for endorsements in the first place?
Like anything there are good operators and bad operators. The DZ I worked at paid a few buck more than Ixxily. I never paid for lunch or dinner if we all went out. My Jump Pilot Approval (endorsement training?) was paid for and done in their aircraft including the ~1 hour each way ferry to the examiner. A trip to the local main airport for the 100 hourly (including a stay at the backpackers) was paid for. The boss never questioned if I didn't want to fly due to weather or maintenance (although maintenance never was an issue despite the plane being twice my age).
I really enjoyed my time at the drop zone. I still say, if there was more money and BIG aircraft like in Europe and the US in our skydiving community I may have stayed a lot longer. I was also acutely aware though I had been very lucky with the company I had ended up with.
Set your own standards, have a bit of integrity and you will get the respect you deserve.
I really enjoyed my time at the drop zone. I still say, if there was more money and BIG aircraft like in Europe and the US in our skydiving community I may have stayed a lot longer. I was also acutely aware though I had been very lucky with the company I had ended up with.
Set your own standards, have a bit of integrity and you will get the respect you deserve.
Johnwells,
Your 150 hour CPL, Did that include a night rating? Or a Aerobatic rating? Tailwheel? When I started my CPL I asked if I could get a job with 150 hours because most of the ads I had seen for entry level jobs (mustering and the like) required 200 to 250 hours. The staff let me know that even though I could get a CPL with 150 hours it would be hard to crack a job with such little total time. About halfway to getting my CPL the more senior instructors suggested doing some more training to get me closer to the 200 instead of just boring holes in the sky. I was doing the night rating anyway but doing the other 2 got me to 175 hours. finished with IFR and then boom! 200 hours. I'm pretty sure the tailwheel was instrumental in one of my job offers a few years ago.
As a side note I did check the whole 200 hour thing with some charter operators. They all agreed that no way could they hire someone with less than 200 hours. The insurance just wouldn't accept it.
John, sounds like you didn't research or the school didn't inform you of the difficulty of getting a job with such low time. Did you think when you graduated you would get something with 150 hours?
Your 150 hour CPL, Did that include a night rating? Or a Aerobatic rating? Tailwheel? When I started my CPL I asked if I could get a job with 150 hours because most of the ads I had seen for entry level jobs (mustering and the like) required 200 to 250 hours. The staff let me know that even though I could get a CPL with 150 hours it would be hard to crack a job with such little total time. About halfway to getting my CPL the more senior instructors suggested doing some more training to get me closer to the 200 instead of just boring holes in the sky. I was doing the night rating anyway but doing the other 2 got me to 175 hours. finished with IFR and then boom! 200 hours. I'm pretty sure the tailwheel was instrumental in one of my job offers a few years ago.
As a side note I did check the whole 200 hour thing with some charter operators. They all agreed that no way could they hire someone with less than 200 hours. The insurance just wouldn't accept it.
John, sounds like you didn't research or the school didn't inform you of the difficulty of getting a job with such low time. Did you think when you graduated you would get something with 150 hours?
Think of your fresh CPL as an apprenticeship, you wouldn't dig trenches for FREE as an apprentice plumber just to "build experience".
If it really is a club, and NO ONE is getting paid, instructors, tandem master, CI etc. then fair enough. But otherwise, you should be compensated.
The Company I work for has taken pilots with less than 200 hrs and has pilots with less than 1000 hrs total flying C441.
When recruiting junior pilots, let's face it - there is little difference between a 150 hr pilot and a 250 hr pilot. The important thing is temperament, maturity and sense of professionalism. The "insurance" thing is largely a cop out, in my opinion - an easy way to show a pesky wannabe the door...
However, the moment that we suspect a pilot will work for free, he gets shown the door. It's difficult enough in GA without pilots undermining the profession. Anyone who thinks that working for free to get hours will translate into being able to demand better pay and conditions later is kidding themselves, undermining the rest of us and condemning future pilots to more of the same crappy apprenticeship into the industry.
However, we are not a skydiving operation. Of the specifics of that niche of the industry, I have little direct experience.
When recruiting junior pilots, let's face it - there is little difference between a 150 hr pilot and a 250 hr pilot. The important thing is temperament, maturity and sense of professionalism. The "insurance" thing is largely a cop out, in my opinion - an easy way to show a pesky wannabe the door...
However, the moment that we suspect a pilot will work for free, he gets shown the door. It's difficult enough in GA without pilots undermining the profession. Anyone who thinks that working for free to get hours will translate into being able to demand better pay and conditions later is kidding themselves, undermining the rest of us and condemning future pilots to more of the same crappy apprenticeship into the industry.
However, we are not a skydiving operation. Of the specifics of that niche of the industry, I have little direct experience.
Last edited by Flying Bear; 17th Aug 2013 at 09:56.
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I really don't know if it's just my age, ie the generation I was born into and the education and upbringing I recieved, but I look most unfavourably upon any pilot who would agree to work for nothing just to get a start!
Fact is, I wouldn't **** on one who did if they were on fire in the gutter!
Get the message?
Rant mode off.
Fact is, I wouldn't **** on one who did if they were on fire in the gutter!
Get the message?
Rant mode off.
Here here Pinky.
Don't justify working for nothing by "if I don't, the next guy will". By doing it, you are completely supporting these parasites who think it's ok.
morno
Don't justify working for nothing by "if I don't, the next guy will". By doing it, you are completely supporting these parasites who think it's ok.
morno
Perhaps a stronger union presence at the grass root levels to stamp out this practice would instill some ethics and pride in our industry which would carry through to airline level. I am constantly surprised at the number of people in good airline jobs who would still sell their grandmother for an extra stripe/ bigger ac, etc.
Protecting the vulnerable "bare" cpl could even boost your ailing memberships, union!
Protecting the vulnerable "bare" cpl could even boost your ailing memberships, union!
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Perhaps for a lot of young guys it's just not knowing any better?
johnwells3366 and others have made some reasonable points. Going from flying school and other private flying which costs upwards of $200 an hour, getting 10 hours a weekend flying a drop plane for free seems like a great proposition to a newly graduated commercial pilot with slim prospects of paid employment elsewhere. How many times has somebody said, 'some flying is better than no flying'?
Maybe as grrowler mentioned, better union representation for unemployed pilots, particularly those in transition from sausage factory flying school to GA employment. I know it would definitely help me.
johnwells3366 and others have made some reasonable points. Going from flying school and other private flying which costs upwards of $200 an hour, getting 10 hours a weekend flying a drop plane for free seems like a great proposition to a newly graduated commercial pilot with slim prospects of paid employment elsewhere. How many times has somebody said, 'some flying is better than no flying'?
Maybe as grrowler mentioned, better union representation for unemployed pilots, particularly those in transition from sausage factory flying school to GA employment. I know it would definitely help me.
Last edited by seneca208; 18th Aug 2013 at 02:12.
Trouble is to be effective & not working for free you need unity, total unity (something we will never see in this country anymore) & where flying newbies are concerned it's back to basic animal instincts, survival of the fittest. It's the same in all walks of life, humans have been crawling over themselves to get ahead since the microbe stage & will continue to do so for all time.
From the morons that race ahead in their cars & takes risks to do so just to get one cars length ahead of the traffic shows that it's wired into our makeup to 'beat' the competition & there's nufin' you can do about that for most.
The whole gambit of not paying for a job (which we all have since we started flying & paying for it at day one btw) & flying for free means the flying landscape has changed, no longer has this industry at that basic level got a long term future & notions of flourishing is short lived, it's all but dead........welcome to the new world so adapt or get left behind & that my fellow aviators is just the way it is.
Wmk2
Wmk2
From the morons that race ahead in their cars & takes risks to do so just to get one cars length ahead of the traffic shows that it's wired into our makeup to 'beat' the competition & there's nufin' you can do about that for most.
The whole gambit of not paying for a job (which we all have since we started flying & paying for it at day one btw) & flying for free means the flying landscape has changed, no longer has this industry at that basic level got a long term future & notions of flourishing is short lived, it's all but dead........welcome to the new world so adapt or get left behind & that my fellow aviators is just the way it is.
Wmk2
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 18th Aug 2013 at 03:33.
Here's my suggestion
1. Go work for them for free
2. Document all the work you do including hours onsite
3. When ready to quit take em to court for unpaid wages
This will show that you are:
(a) An idiot
(b) A scab who cannot keep his word
And the dodgy organisation that employs you will get lumped with a bill that may well send them to the wall.
All problems solved.
2. Document all the work you do including hours onsite
3. When ready to quit take em to court for unpaid wages
This will show that you are:
(a) An idiot
(b) A scab who cannot keep his word
And the dodgy organisation that employs you will get lumped with a bill that may well send them to the wall.
All problems solved.
In a few years time there won't be any GA left to con pilots into flying for free. Problem solved
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Funny how some guys see a few hours of unpaid jump flying to be anything different than paying for your own endorsement (in one way or another) at major airlines. We're getting screwed at both ends of the aviation ladder if you ask me! 
Mark, I don't really care but looking around the traps, it is the skydivers in some areas that make money and have good planes, therefor the question remains, why can't they pay their pilots?
The only reason some don't is because of pilots who fly for free.
The only reason some don't is because of pilots who fly for free.