Working as ATC post 2009
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Working as ATC post 2009
Hi All,
I'm looking at a career change and have always been fascinated by ATC.
My current job sees me working with healthcare professionals (very demanding people) - delivering multi-million dollar projects. The healthcare environment, as some may know, is hardly a stress free environment. Although admittedly, I don't know how this compares stress-wise to the aviation industry.
I've been doing a lot of research and have come across a great deal of negativity toward Air Services Australia. I have noted, however that the vast majority of that was prior to the 2009 agreement (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...05_2012_15.pdf).
I'd be interested to hear from ATC's (or those with insider knowledge) if they would recommend a career as an ATC now that new working conditions have been agreed. I'm specifically interested in the reality of working hours (weekends with family etc) and the working environment. I'm also interested to know if things get easier/harder as one progresses through the ranks from in-training and beyond.
Thanks in advance.
I'm looking at a career change and have always been fascinated by ATC.
My current job sees me working with healthcare professionals (very demanding people) - delivering multi-million dollar projects. The healthcare environment, as some may know, is hardly a stress free environment. Although admittedly, I don't know how this compares stress-wise to the aviation industry.
I've been doing a lot of research and have come across a great deal of negativity toward Air Services Australia. I have noted, however that the vast majority of that was prior to the 2009 agreement (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...05_2012_15.pdf).
I'd be interested to hear from ATC's (or those with insider knowledge) if they would recommend a career as an ATC now that new working conditions have been agreed. I'm specifically interested in the reality of working hours (weekends with family etc) and the working environment. I'm also interested to know if things get easier/harder as one progresses through the ranks from in-training and beyond.
Thanks in advance.
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I joined AsA about 6 years ago, during the depths of what one might term the 'morale' crisis. The general mood at the time among staff was rather depressing. The primary causes were diabolically low staffing levels in most areas, combined with upper level management denial of the problem, as well as public smear campaigns by our past CEO against ATCs leading up to the 2009 agreement.
These days morale & staffing levels really depend on where you are eventually posted, however IMHO the overall working environment is significantly better than it was when I joined, and I would actually say that (for me at least) AsA is a good employer. There are areas where it's less enjoyable (as with any workplace, it can depend greatly on your immediate manager and colleagues), however overall things are pretty good. Staffing levels are still an issue, although to their credit, AsA have put significant resources into training a lot more ab-initios, and we're seeing some improvement. Some groups have enough staff, some not quite, and some are still struggling. Of course this can have a negative effect on leave availability, and the occasional shift where the group runs understaffed.
I never hesitate to recommend ATC as a career. It's a fantastic job. Moving big jets around the sky is pretty cool
As far as stress goes, I would describe it as occasionally 'high pressure', but the great thing is that you don't take any work/stress home. Most ATCs love moving traffic, and actually get a thrill out of the busy/high pressure periods.
Regarding working hours, you will be at the mercy of your assigned group/tower's roster. They all vary (quite significantly sometimes) depending on the requirements of the group. Some have a lot of night shifts, some a lot of very early mornings, some are mostly mon-fri. There's very little flexibility to change shifts once the roster is out (due to a controversial and rather inflexible new 'fatigue management system'), which sometimes forces staff to choose between missing their kid's school concert or calling in sick. There's no bidding/seniority for rosters or days off like with the airlines.
The training is tough. It's not an easy job to learn for most, and the first 3-6 months after achieving a rating are also quite challenging. However, with experience the job does become easier and after consolidating and building your own confidence in your ability it really does become enjoyable! Senior controllers are generally very good at providing support and keeping an eye on newbies.
I hope I've answered your questions! Feel free to PM me if you've got any more!
These days morale & staffing levels really depend on where you are eventually posted, however IMHO the overall working environment is significantly better than it was when I joined, and I would actually say that (for me at least) AsA is a good employer. There are areas where it's less enjoyable (as with any workplace, it can depend greatly on your immediate manager and colleagues), however overall things are pretty good. Staffing levels are still an issue, although to their credit, AsA have put significant resources into training a lot more ab-initios, and we're seeing some improvement. Some groups have enough staff, some not quite, and some are still struggling. Of course this can have a negative effect on leave availability, and the occasional shift where the group runs understaffed.
I never hesitate to recommend ATC as a career. It's a fantastic job. Moving big jets around the sky is pretty cool
As far as stress goes, I would describe it as occasionally 'high pressure', but the great thing is that you don't take any work/stress home. Most ATCs love moving traffic, and actually get a thrill out of the busy/high pressure periods.Regarding working hours, you will be at the mercy of your assigned group/tower's roster. They all vary (quite significantly sometimes) depending on the requirements of the group. Some have a lot of night shifts, some a lot of very early mornings, some are mostly mon-fri. There's very little flexibility to change shifts once the roster is out (due to a controversial and rather inflexible new 'fatigue management system'), which sometimes forces staff to choose between missing their kid's school concert or calling in sick. There's no bidding/seniority for rosters or days off like with the airlines.
The training is tough. It's not an easy job to learn for most, and the first 3-6 months after achieving a rating are also quite challenging. However, with experience the job does become easier and after consolidating and building your own confidence in your ability it really does become enjoyable! Senior controllers are generally very good at providing support and keeping an eye on newbies.
I hope I've answered your questions! Feel free to PM me if you've got any more!
Last edited by fower; 12th Jul 2013 at 10:41.
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Thanks for your very thorough response.
I bring a lot of stress home with me, which I'd like to avoid.
One last question, is there an age limit? I'm 36 and have heard that there is an age ceiling of 30, beyond which one cannot apply. Is this true?
I bring a lot of stress home with me, which I'd like to avoid.
One last question, is there an age limit? I'm 36 and have heard that there is an age ceiling of 30, beyond which one cannot apply. Is this true?
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Re the age limit, best check with ASA direct, but I'm pretty sure some in this thread http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/311...sting-132.html were over 40 and accepted. (Are age limits legal anymore?)
As for staffing levels, some groups are now complaining about not getting overtime.
Overall though, I'd pretty much agree with what flower said (and I like a good ASA bash/whinge more than most). I think most of the things that are/were/perceived/actually wrong with ASA aren't unique, and just the way a lot of workplaces are these days (and you've probably already experienced), but the job itself is good.
The only thing I would add is it is shift work, so you will end up working more Christmas days, new years, birthdays, family functions etc than not.
As for staffing levels, some groups are now complaining about not getting overtime.
Overall though, I'd pretty much agree with what flower said (and I like a good ASA bash/whinge more than most). I think most of the things that are/were/perceived/actually wrong with ASA aren't unique, and just the way a lot of workplaces are these days (and you've probably already experienced), but the job itself is good.
The only thing I would add is it is shift work, so you will end up working more Christmas days, new years, birthdays, family functions etc than not.
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Oh, and I didn't say 100% fail, I said 0% pass..withdrawal is an option that has been exercised more than once. As an aside, you may be interested to know that the pass rate for all ab-initio trainees hovers around 60-65%..
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An iPhone auto corrected question, in fact.
So, only 65% of those who attempt to pass the training pass and of those 'approximately' 100% of them will be between the age of 18-39!
That's very specific. I'm curious where this information comes from as it will assist a great many of us who are moving toward this age group decide if we want to waste our time or not.
So, only 65% of those who attempt to pass the training pass and of those 'approximately' 100% of them will be between the age of 18-39!
That's very specific. I'm curious where this information comes from as it will assist a great many of us who are moving toward this age group decide if we want to waste our time or not.
I'll throw in some generalities to explain the age situation:
1. The course is very full on with limited leeway for catching up. When was the last time you studied full time and intensely for an extended period?
2. As you get older it becomes harder to learn entirely new things and change the way you think. On the course you aren't just learning facts and rules but also a way of thinking.
3. Having other responsibilities such as family can be a distraction.
Hempy isn't meaning 40 is some magical cut off but the older you are the lower your chances of passing are. Multiply that by the factor of relatively few over 40s starting training and you end up with numerical scarcity. Again all very anecdotal.
Those are the "stats" such as they are. In the end it all comes down to you as an individual. All it says that you at 36 will likely find it harder than you at 26.
1. The course is very full on with limited leeway for catching up. When was the last time you studied full time and intensely for an extended period?
2. As you get older it becomes harder to learn entirely new things and change the way you think. On the course you aren't just learning facts and rules but also a way of thinking.
3. Having other responsibilities such as family can be a distraction.
Hempy isn't meaning 40 is some magical cut off but the older you are the lower your chances of passing are. Multiply that by the factor of relatively few over 40s starting training and you end up with numerical scarcity. Again all very anecdotal.
Those are the "stats" such as they are. In the end it all comes down to you as an individual. All it says that you at 36 will likely find it harder than you at 26.
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What Pengoin says is all true. Added to his thoughts I'll also say that your mind needs to be sharp to pick it up in the time required, and you need serious motivation. The life commitments most people have already at that age seem to dull both of those things because you really need to live and breathe it for 16 full months.
All that isn't to say age should deter anyone from applying, older trainees are certainly welcome. It was just to help you with informed decision making in your application process.
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Thank you for the candid responses - it has helped.
For me, I'm less concerned with studying for 16 months (it says 14 for en route in the ASA brochure) and more concerned with the impacts the job will have on my family. I currently have a 9 - 5 job, which means I get weekends. I realise the nature of ATC is quite different. What I would like to know is just how bad it is in reality from a rostering point of view. I'm a morning person, so I wouldn't have issues with starting at 5 or 6am.
Is anybody able to share a typical roster one might expect as an atc?
For me, I'm less concerned with studying for 16 months (it says 14 for en route in the ASA brochure) and more concerned with the impacts the job will have on my family. I currently have a 9 - 5 job, which means I get weekends. I realise the nature of ATC is quite different. What I would like to know is just how bad it is in reality from a rostering point of view. I'm a morning person, so I wouldn't have issues with starting at 5 or 6am.
Is anybody able to share a typical roster one might expect as an atc?
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I can only speak for Melbourne Centre, but there isn't really a typical roster unfortunately. They vary not only from group to group, but also within the group, as well as at different times of the year for some. Count on working more weekends than not though. For example a simple 4 on 2 off roster will give you one complete weekend (Sat and Sun) off and 2 half weekends (Sat or Sun) in 7 weeks.
Particular runs or patterns of shifts can be particularly family unfriendly (or so I hear
). An evening shift for example may have you waking up after the kids have gone to school, and getting home after they have gone to bed, which may wear a bit thin after 5 in a row. Or you may be getting home after a night shift at 7am on a Saturday and trying to sleep! On the other hand, most shifts are morning, afternoon or night, so even if you a working the weekend you might not loose it all.
Another unpublicised "feature" is rec leave (holidays). Only a certain number of people in each group can be on leave at once, so to facilitate this all leave must be booked 14 months in advance. Booking time of for events that are arranged less than 14 months in advance can involve some guesswork and luck.
I'm not trying to put you off (personally I prefer shift work and couldn't cope with 9-5) but it is a 24/365 job, and you are paid to work shifts.
Someone has probably already suggested this, but ring up and arrange to visit the centre. Not only will you get a bit of an appreciation for the job, but you can see some rosters and get a feel on the working environment and general morale of the place (unless you get stuck with the group grump, most have at least one
)
Particular runs or patterns of shifts can be particularly family unfriendly (or so I hear
). An evening shift for example may have you waking up after the kids have gone to school, and getting home after they have gone to bed, which may wear a bit thin after 5 in a row. Or you may be getting home after a night shift at 7am on a Saturday and trying to sleep! On the other hand, most shifts are morning, afternoon or night, so even if you a working the weekend you might not loose it all.Another unpublicised "feature" is rec leave (holidays). Only a certain number of people in each group can be on leave at once, so to facilitate this all leave must be booked 14 months in advance. Booking time of for events that are arranged less than 14 months in advance can involve some guesswork and luck.
I'm not trying to put you off (personally I prefer shift work and couldn't cope with 9-5) but it is a 24/365 job, and you are paid to work shifts.
Someone has probably already suggested this, but ring up and arrange to visit the centre. Not only will you get a bit of an appreciation for the job, but you can see some rosters and get a feel on the working environment and general morale of the place (unless you get stuck with the group grump, most have at least one
)
Rostering is based around traffic patterns and the ratings you have, noting not all locations are 24 hour, so you can't really say any roster is typical. You will be working most weekends (or parts thereof), and a range of morning, afternoon, evening and night (doggo) shifts. You might avoid doggos for a while due to lack of ratings or if you end up at a non 24 hour tower.
Shifts are usually 7 to 8 hours long. Mornings start between 0500 and 0700, afternoons between 1200 and 1300, evenings between 1400 and 1600, and doggos 2200 to 2300.
We work between 4 and 6 shifts in a row with 2 or 3 days off between (plus or minus). Roster lines where I work include these and variations:
MMAADDOOO
MMMMOO
AAAAAOO
MMAAOO
There is limited scope for swapping shifts and as fower said you're largely stuck with what's rostered.
So yes, an understanding and flexible family is necessary to allow you to sleep and know you'll miss important events. On the plus side you generally aren't battling the 9-5 commute, don't have to fit things into your lunch hour and what happens at work stays there unless it's been a really bad shift. The biggest downside is it's very hard to commit to regular things that occur on a particular day of the week or month.
Shifts are usually 7 to 8 hours long. Mornings start between 0500 and 0700, afternoons between 1200 and 1300, evenings between 1400 and 1600, and doggos 2200 to 2300.
We work between 4 and 6 shifts in a row with 2 or 3 days off between (plus or minus). Roster lines where I work include these and variations:
MMAADDOOO
MMMMOO
AAAAAOO
MMAAOO
There is limited scope for swapping shifts and as fower said you're largely stuck with what's rostered.
So yes, an understanding and flexible family is necessary to allow you to sleep and know you'll miss important events. On the plus side you generally aren't battling the 9-5 commute, don't have to fit things into your lunch hour and what happens at work stays there unless it's been a really bad shift. The biggest downside is it's very hard to commit to regular things that occur on a particular day of the week or month.
I'm with you NB - couldn't cope with the 9-5 grind.
I have a late start tomorrow and as it's going to be warm and sunny I'll be having lunch with la Pingouin, taking Pingouin junior to the park and doing the school pick up. A very relaxed and pleasant start to the day. It doesn't entirely make up for the crap side but is sweet when you can.
I have a late start tomorrow and as it's going to be warm and sunny I'll be having lunch with la Pingouin, taking Pingouin junior to the park and doing the school pick up. A very relaxed and pleasant start to the day. It doesn't entirely make up for the crap side but is sweet when you can.
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9Sl9
As Hempy and others have said, for the right person, it is just the best job going. I work in a regional control Tower and would not swap it.
That being said, I also have had the sad task of twice having to terminate a persons training. In both cases, they were very intelligent, capable people, but ultimately not ATC's. In both cases, they had been training for between 1 - 2 years before the training was terminated.
The other thing to consider is that the recruitment / training pay is fairly low, which can be a deal breaker for people with life experience considering joining ATC.
As for the company and lifestyle, I think we are making some good improvements on where we were, but with better to come. I have been doing this for more than 30 years and I realise that I have missed some family moments, but have had the opportunity for others.
I would certainly suggest that you contact an ATC facility near you and see if you can arrange a visit.
Best of luck whatever your decision.
As Hempy and others have said, for the right person, it is just the best job going. I work in a regional control Tower and would not swap it.
That being said, I also have had the sad task of twice having to terminate a persons training. In both cases, they were very intelligent, capable people, but ultimately not ATC's. In both cases, they had been training for between 1 - 2 years before the training was terminated.
The other thing to consider is that the recruitment / training pay is fairly low, which can be a deal breaker for people with life experience considering joining ATC.
As for the company and lifestyle, I think we are making some good improvements on where we were, but with better to come. I have been doing this for more than 30 years and I realise that I have missed some family moments, but have had the opportunity for others.
I would certainly suggest that you contact an ATC facility near you and see if you can arrange a visit.
Best of luck whatever your decision.
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There's been some very good info put forward here and I mostly agree with it. Personally, I love shiftwork compared to M-F/9-5. It generally gives me a half/full day to do things when most people are at work. Obviously, there can be some issues with weekends off and family events etc, but to give a slightly different perspective, I have never had too many problems swapping shifts with my workmates. This, coupled with my group being significantly understaffed, ie plenty of blank shifts rostered that can be swapped into, means I can usually get to my kid's athletics carnival, or footy game, or whatever. As someone mentioned though, the new fatigue rules have made this a bit harder in some cases.
Regarding age, I guess this has to be weighed up case by case. Notwithstanding that some people may find it harder to learn something that is completely foreign to them as they get older, people also generally have more 'stuff' going on in their lives in their 40's than when they were 20, and that can occupy their attention. Don't let it put you off though. I'm all for people giving it a go if they think they'd like it.
For me, ATC is the best job going around and I'm pretty sure that the majority of people I've worked with over the years would agree. It might not be for everyone, and it does have it's negatives (like anywhere), but overall it's great.
Regarding age, I guess this has to be weighed up case by case. Notwithstanding that some people may find it harder to learn something that is completely foreign to them as they get older, people also generally have more 'stuff' going on in their lives in their 40's than when they were 20, and that can occupy their attention. Don't let it put you off though. I'm all for people giving it a go if they think they'd like it.
For me, ATC is the best job going around and I'm pretty sure that the majority of people I've worked with over the years would agree. It might not be for everyone, and it does have it's negatives (like anywhere), but overall it's great.
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Great feedback everyone. My overall summary of your valuable input is as follows:
This has been an interesting post. From an outsiders perspective there is a great deal of 'undesirable' elements to being an ATC, and no way to quantify the positives of the job first hand (i.e. flaming the passion). I have attempted to visit the Brisbane based facilities only to be told that such visits are a security risk and not allowed. This means that for a 'mature aged' potential recruit I would need to 'trust' that the job is for me, even in the face of all the negatives.
I'm not surprised the industry is suffering from a shortage of qualified professionals and wish ASA the best of luck in balancing the scales and attracting new recruits. Perhaps this is a young persons game after all....
Thanks again for your valuable input and time.
This has been an interesting post. From an outsiders perspective there is a great deal of 'undesirable' elements to being an ATC, and no way to quantify the positives of the job first hand (i.e. flaming the passion). I have attempted to visit the Brisbane based facilities only to be told that such visits are a security risk and not allowed. This means that for a 'mature aged' potential recruit I would need to 'trust' that the job is for me, even in the face of all the negatives.
I'm not surprised the industry is suffering from a shortage of qualified professionals and wish ASA the best of luck in balancing the scales and attracting new recruits. Perhaps this is a young persons game after all....
Thanks again for your valuable input and time.
Last edited by 9SL9; 17th Jul 2013 at 06:42.
For better or worse it's a secure environment so you don't get in without a good reason - curiosity doesn't cut it. Applying and getting past the first phase is one way of getting a look-in - all it costs is the time taken. You can always decline to go further with the application.
There are a great deal of undesirable elements to most jobs when you get down to listing them. With a bit of flexibility you can gain quite a bit back. Swap a few shifts and get a week off? Of course it means fewer days off later. Swings and round-abouts.
In theory you have to do a reasonable amount of overtime and for many the extra money comes in handy. There's always the "I'm not fit for duty" card - lack of sleep or a glass of red in the last 8 hours is sufficient for instance.
With respect to rec leave you have to remember you can't take leave unless there's someone to replace you. Aircraft aren't a stack of papers that can be put on hold for a week or two, or passed out between your colleagues while you're away - only a certain number can be on leave at any one time.
My personal take is that passion is overrated. Mainly you need to be lucky enough to have the required attributes and determination to do as well as you can. Without those you have no chance.
With respect to the 35% failure rate - that's the historical average. What it doesn't mean is it's the same for every course - you're competing against a standard, not each other. It's never the top N% pass & the rest fail - 100% pass or 100% failure is entirely possible. You also need to note that passing the course doesn't guarantee attaining a rating.
One thing I like about ATC is the wide variety of backgrounds of the people I work with - ex-Army, Navy and Air Force, car mechanics, RPT pilots, IT professionals, failed uni students, multiple degree holders and everything else in between.
I do think learning ATC is largely a young'uns game - speed and flexibility. That said it's also down to you as an individual.
There are a great deal of undesirable elements to most jobs when you get down to listing them. With a bit of flexibility you can gain quite a bit back. Swap a few shifts and get a week off? Of course it means fewer days off later. Swings and round-abouts.
In theory you have to do a reasonable amount of overtime and for many the extra money comes in handy. There's always the "I'm not fit for duty" card - lack of sleep or a glass of red in the last 8 hours is sufficient for instance.
With respect to rec leave you have to remember you can't take leave unless there's someone to replace you. Aircraft aren't a stack of papers that can be put on hold for a week or two, or passed out between your colleagues while you're away - only a certain number can be on leave at any one time.
My personal take is that passion is overrated. Mainly you need to be lucky enough to have the required attributes and determination to do as well as you can. Without those you have no chance.
With respect to the 35% failure rate - that's the historical average. What it doesn't mean is it's the same for every course - you're competing against a standard, not each other. It's never the top N% pass & the rest fail - 100% pass or 100% failure is entirely possible. You also need to note that passing the course doesn't guarantee attaining a rating.
One thing I like about ATC is the wide variety of backgrounds of the people I work with - ex-Army, Navy and Air Force, car mechanics, RPT pilots, IT professionals, failed uni students, multiple degree holders and everything else in between.
I do think learning ATC is largely a young'uns game - speed and flexibility. That said it's also down to you as an individual.