Promised changes have never happened. Airspace Reform??
Howabout, there is nothing in the regs that mandates that a control zone should go out to 12 miles at ground level or that the approach controller must be responsible for that airspace.
At one time the Coffs airspace went to 19 miles at ground level It's now 7 miles
The concrete argument is that it is clear that the leadership is not game to make changes.
Over the years a small number of RAAF personel, some in senior positions, have told me that the changes would be made.
I bet once there is a mid air that the changes will then be made.. Why not do them now before lives are lost?
If the tower controlled the airspace to the coast it's clear that the holding would rarely have to take place. Canberra Tower controls the airspace to 9nm. If Civilian Controllers can somehow cope with this arduous task- why can't the Military Controllers?
It just needs proper leadership. It is embarrassing for Australia that this is lacking in the RAAF
At one time the Coffs airspace went to 19 miles at ground level It's now 7 miles
The concrete argument is that it is clear that the leadership is not game to make changes.
Over the years a small number of RAAF personel, some in senior positions, have told me that the changes would be made.
I bet once there is a mid air that the changes will then be made.. Why not do them now before lives are lost?
If the tower controlled the airspace to the coast it's clear that the holding would rarely have to take place. Canberra Tower controls the airspace to 9nm. If Civilian Controllers can somehow cope with this arduous task- why can't the Military Controllers?
It just needs proper leadership. It is embarrassing for Australia that this is lacking in the RAAF
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Dick,
One thing I won't do with you is stoop to invective. Regardless of my opinion on matters airspace, your banter in support of your beliefs has always demonstrated a degree of good humour. I am sure that you find me frustrating (comparison with your 14 year-old daughter some time back during NAS), just like I find you so. You can be bloody infuriating, but you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
Dick, there is nothing in the regs that stipulates that a CTR can't go out to 12 miles! Have a look at the chart Mate, and look at the proximity of the airfield to the Salt Ash range. The approach controller is dealing with high-speed jets inbound and outbound. He/she is far better equipped with radar to deal with separation. Wasn't there an argument way back that you can't control terminal Class C without radar during NAS? Who promoted that argument...uh doh! Can't have it both ways Mate!
Dick, that's a major problem with your hypotheses When you start to lose traction you resort to the unsubstantiated emotive. I remind you of your pronouncement during the NAS 2B rollback. Didn't you say in the press that you'd advised your family not to fly in Class C airspace that had been re-classified from non-radar E because it was 'dangerous?' Please remind me how many poor innocents have been killed since.
As I said, Dick, nothing personal.
BTW, the beetroot is sensational. But do you think I could find any in Coles today? Mrs Howabout was distinctly unimpressed with the alternative I brought home for the burgers.
Aust 0/68!
One thing I won't do with you is stoop to invective. Regardless of my opinion on matters airspace, your banter in support of your beliefs has always demonstrated a degree of good humour. I am sure that you find me frustrating (comparison with your 14 year-old daughter some time back during NAS), just like I find you so. You can be bloody infuriating, but you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
Howabout, there is nothing in the regs that mandates that a control zone should go out to 12 miles at ground level or that the approach controller must be responsible for that airspace.
I bet once there is a mid air that the changes will then be made.. Why not do them now before lives are lost?
As I said, Dick, nothing personal.
BTW, the beetroot is sensational. But do you think I could find any in Coles today? Mrs Howabout was distinctly unimpressed with the alternative I brought home for the burgers.
Aust 0/68!
As I said, Dick, nothing personal.
If you have an argument, make it. There is no place in rational debate for comparing your protagonist to your 14 YO daughter.
Last edited by Old Akro; 13th Jul 2013 at 22:53.
Howabout
You will clearly come up with every reason you can to justify the status quo.
Aero pelican operated for over 30 years with 100's of thousands of airline passenger movements with a strip even closer to the coast. VFR Aircraft did not hold 12 miles out when an airline aircraft was in or outbound.
What is your objection to giving the tower at Williamtown a bit more airspace? Or requiring departing aircraft to be no lower than 1000' when crossing the coast?
Modern procedures work in other countries- why not here?
No beetroot available because the Cowra Cannery went broke after Aldi started selling beetroot at half price but decent Aussie wages still had to be paid by the farmers. Now no Australian owned cannery's left . Coles are now about to delete our OzeSauce - as Heinze is being rewarded by Aussie consumers for sacking their workers , dumping the farmers and moving off shore. I despair!
And, by the way I said no such thing about Class C.
You will clearly come up with every reason you can to justify the status quo.
Aero pelican operated for over 30 years with 100's of thousands of airline passenger movements with a strip even closer to the coast. VFR Aircraft did not hold 12 miles out when an airline aircraft was in or outbound.
What is your objection to giving the tower at Williamtown a bit more airspace? Or requiring departing aircraft to be no lower than 1000' when crossing the coast?
Modern procedures work in other countries- why not here?
No beetroot available because the Cowra Cannery went broke after Aldi started selling beetroot at half price but decent Aussie wages still had to be paid by the farmers. Now no Australian owned cannery's left . Coles are now about to delete our OzeSauce - as Heinze is being rewarded by Aussie consumers for sacking their workers , dumping the farmers and moving off shore. I despair!
And, by the way I said no such thing about Class C.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 13th Jul 2013 at 23:12.
The approach controller is dealing with high-speed jets inbound
Reminds me of the Canberras operating into and out of Baik in the 70s. Had to do a high speed run down the runway before pitching for a circuit and landing. Don't they teach RAAF pilots how to do a straight in approach.
I am sure the RAAF could consign high speed approaches to the remote bases that we have built for them in Northern Australia.
Here's how it's done at some places overseas for example. Class C at the surface extends to a radius of 5 miles and then out to 10 miles the floor is 1200 feet. The top of the class C is 4000 feet. A VFR flight can go over the top or low outside 5 miles without talking to ATC but does need a transponder. All this at a place the has over 100k aircraft movements (about 25% military and about 20% rpt) and moves over 2.5M passengers a year.
Originally Posted by Dick
And, by the way I said no such thing about Class C.
There is nothing new with this argument. Is this just the beginning of a political joust to coincide with the 36 point CASA report into ASA...having a go at the ex-mil chair of ASA? Chinese puzzle...watching very carefully.
And there’s an election coming up in Australia.
It will be interesting to see what the parties promise Dick to keep him quiet and on side during the campaign.
I can feel another ‘Task Force’ coming on….
It will be interesting to see what the parties promise Dick to keep him quiet and on side during the campaign.
I can feel another ‘Task Force’ coming on….
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Sorry Dick, I didn't like your beetroot, however your version of vegemite wasn't bad at all! I also enjoy your risqué 'dick' commercials, rather humorous if I may concede. Although not as amusing as say John McComick at an AMROBA meeting, but nonetheless amusing!
No one. What is also important is that in the USA the tower controls the airspace to the 5 mile boundary. They then use sensible procedures in this airspace.
One day the RAAF will update to these more modern procedures- but don't hold your breath!
One day the RAAF will update to these more modern procedures- but don't hold your breath!
Was I dreamin' when I got the 'BIG Redundo'..??
NOPE!!
Still enjoyin' it... Oi is......Ta Dick......
NOPE!!
Still enjoyin' it... Oi is......Ta Dick......
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 15th Jul 2013 at 15:00.
"Task" force...??????
What task force was that. ?
Big Screaming Skull ballyhoo in March 2011. a "task force".to report back in 2/TWO years on all those vital changes ...ref GA etc
Heard anything on that one Creamie ??...or has it been consigned, as with so many other promised changes, to the dustbin of history.
"Standby one...Decision pending" said the CAsA person to the skeleton waiting by the door.
Big Screaming Skull ballyhoo in March 2011. a "task force".to report back in 2/TWO years on all those vital changes ...ref GA etc
Heard anything on that one Creamie ??...or has it been consigned, as with so many other promised changes, to the dustbin of history.
"Standby one...Decision pending" said the CAsA person to the skeleton waiting by the door.
Task Forces are the modern day version of Yes Minister’s appointment of a “Supremo”.
I posted this on 25 May 2007 – yes, 6 years ago - in the drifting along forever thread:
Worked a treat on Dick.
Of course, it didn’t actually produce anything.
I posted this on 25 May 2007 – yes, 6 years ago - in the drifting along forever thread:
Senator O’BRIEN—What will the reporting relationship be between the task force and CASA?
Mr Mrdak—Mr Byron is a member of the task force. The task force will report to the minister. Mr Byron, as a member of the task force, will have a part to play in its advice.
Senator O’BRIEN—Has the task force met yet?
Mr Mrdak—Yes, it has.
Mr Ford—The task force has had one meeting. It was on 14 May.
Senator O’BRIEN—A week ago. Does it have terms of reference?
Mr Mrdak—Yes, it does.
Senator O’BRIEN—Are they public?
Mr Mrdak—They are not. I can take that on notice. The minister has written to the chair of the task force setting out his expectations and the area he wishes to have the task force cover. I will take that on notice to see if that can be made available to the committee.
Senator O’BRIEN—Thank you for that. Do you know if it has yet established a work program, who it will consult and when it will report?
Mr Mrdak—The initial meeting of the committee last week did establish a meeting schedule and initial areas of focus for its work—initially looking at parts of the civil aviation regulations which are under development, particularly, and I will check this with Mr Ford, part 91.
Mr Ford—Yes, it is part 91. The task force has decided to focus initially on some high priority areas of the regulatory framework. Part 91 is one of those.
Senator O’BRIEN—Remind me what is in part 91.
Mr Mrdak—It principally covers general flying rules and procedures.
Senator O’BRIEN—What is the term of the appointments of the members of the task force?
Mr Mrdak—They have been asked to provide a report to the minister by December this year.
Senator O’BRIEN—Are sitting fees paid to members of the task force?
Mr Mrdak—Terms and conditions are yet to be settled. It is yet to be finalised what remuneration will be made available to the task force. We are currently working through that.
Senator O’BRIEN—But some will?
Mr Mrdak—We are looking at options to do that, yes. It is envisaged that there will be some remuneration for their time involved or at least a meeting of their costs.
Senator O’BRIEN—Is there a standard fee for the chair of such a task force? Mr Mrdak—There are provisions through the Remuneration Tribunal for such special purpose tasks, and we are currently doing some work with the rem tribunal to ascertain what is the most appropriate remuneration for the task force chair and the members.
Senator O’BRIEN—Will you take it on notice to supply the committee with those details when they are established, or do I have to do it through another process?
Mr Mrdak—I would be happy to advise the committee when those arrangements are finalised and established.
Mr Mrdak—Mr Byron is a member of the task force. The task force will report to the minister. Mr Byron, as a member of the task force, will have a part to play in its advice.
Senator O’BRIEN—Has the task force met yet?
Mr Mrdak—Yes, it has.
Mr Ford—The task force has had one meeting. It was on 14 May.
Senator O’BRIEN—A week ago. Does it have terms of reference?
Mr Mrdak—Yes, it does.
Senator O’BRIEN—Are they public?
Mr Mrdak—They are not. I can take that on notice. The minister has written to the chair of the task force setting out his expectations and the area he wishes to have the task force cover. I will take that on notice to see if that can be made available to the committee.
Senator O’BRIEN—Thank you for that. Do you know if it has yet established a work program, who it will consult and when it will report?
Mr Mrdak—The initial meeting of the committee last week did establish a meeting schedule and initial areas of focus for its work—initially looking at parts of the civil aviation regulations which are under development, particularly, and I will check this with Mr Ford, part 91.
Mr Ford—Yes, it is part 91. The task force has decided to focus initially on some high priority areas of the regulatory framework. Part 91 is one of those.
Senator O’BRIEN—Remind me what is in part 91.
Mr Mrdak—It principally covers general flying rules and procedures.
Senator O’BRIEN—What is the term of the appointments of the members of the task force?
Mr Mrdak—They have been asked to provide a report to the minister by December this year.
Senator O’BRIEN—Are sitting fees paid to members of the task force?
Mr Mrdak—Terms and conditions are yet to be settled. It is yet to be finalised what remuneration will be made available to the task force. We are currently working through that.
Senator O’BRIEN—But some will?
Mr Mrdak—We are looking at options to do that, yes. It is envisaged that there will be some remuneration for their time involved or at least a meeting of their costs.
Senator O’BRIEN—Is there a standard fee for the chair of such a task force? Mr Mrdak—There are provisions through the Remuneration Tribunal for such special purpose tasks, and we are currently doing some work with the rem tribunal to ascertain what is the most appropriate remuneration for the task force chair and the members.
Senator O’BRIEN—Will you take it on notice to supply the committee with those details when they are established, or do I have to do it through another process?
Mr Mrdak—I would be happy to advise the committee when those arrangements are finalised and established.
Of course, it didn’t actually produce anything.
