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MERGED: Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program

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MERGED: Jetstar Pilot Cadet Program

Old 2nd Jun 2013, 03:10
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
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27, if the conditions & terms weren't legitimate they wouldn't be happening. If the licence they are operating under wasn't legitimate, they wouldn't be sitting in the right seat.

You have every right to protest. Will Jetstar take your protest on board? Will the terms & conditions change to what you think is fair & reasonable? The only thing that will change the conditions are supply & demand. How are pilots conditions being undermined if pilots are accepting the conditions on offer?

Do Jetstar have a problem with operating standards? Where's the proof of this?

Last edited by Jack Ranga; 2nd Jun 2013 at 03:11.
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 03:14
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: In the doghouse
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All the waffle in the world doesn't change a few simple facts.

If you got into aviation for the money, particularly in your first 2-5 years, you haven't done your research. A bare CPL is gonna get you not much, and you need to spend more money to make money..

Look at the outlay for the return., doing it outside a sausage factory maybe 70k to a MECIR.. Earn about 35-45 depending in what your doing.. In other words. Not much

Go to a sausage factory spend about 120 then another 34 to get type rates and earn 60.. Still not much

If your willing to accept that you will have to do an apprenticeship no matter what (and no matter how amazing you think you are), then you will be far better off both to yourself and the company.. How anyone thinks they are owed something with 200 hours in the logbook is beyond me?

Take a camera to work, try and enjoy the view, and the ride. The money will come eventually if you can put up with the bullsh1t

The cadetships are the way of the future, so get used to it. They probably are above board, but that won't make them fair or reasonable.

You want to look at fair and reasonable, then don't read the pilot award..
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 03:15
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Usually Jack, as you know, I'm pretty supportive of your views. But your last question about standards? You are kidding, aren't you? Mishandled flaps on approach, (multiple times, ) F+cked up Go arounds, infamous mobile phone incident, plenty to choose from. Make your argument, sure, but that isn't the way to do it mate.
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 03:27
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Porch, unfortunately my point isn't well made on the Internet

Yes all of those incidents have happened, why hasn't Jetstar being prosecuted? Is there one rule for them & another for the rest of us? (rhetorical question!)

Point I'm trying to make is that if there is a problem with standards & offences have been committed, who is doing something about it? If there are inconsistencies being applied it will show up.

27/09 and anybody else that is being affected by this should be doing something about it if they feel so strongly. Or dare I say it they are just whinging................

Last edited by Jack Ranga; 2nd Jun 2013 at 03:32.
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 05:08
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Australia
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so basically for someone with 1500+ in ga, multi engine and turbine experience....airlines are a no go?? should I throw out my logbook and start again?
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 07:04
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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"so basically for someone with 1500+ in ga, multi engine and turbine experience....airlines are a no go?? should I throw out my logbook and start again?"

C173, I'd trust you far more than than fresh cadets in the same position..I hope the airlines feel the same.. I trust that most of them do.. I'm not saying its the only way to get there, and I'm sure the majority of cadets turn out ok, but I like that you have been out there making COMMAND decisions.. When do the cadets with no other experience get that opportunity?
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 09:38
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 17
Geez,
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been closed again yet, it always starts with some poor guy trying to find information, and turns into a giant bashing session
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 09:59
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
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DEY TUUK OUR JERBS!

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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 12:05
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
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27/09 and anybody else that is being affected by this should be doing something about it if they feel so strongly. Or dare I say it they are just whinging................
Actually Jack, I'm not affected by any of this, I'm an interested bystander, on the outside looking in if you like. Very often this gives a much better perspective.

Having seen and read what's happened elsewhere in the aviation industry where there's been cadetships like the Jetstar one I shudder to think where it will end for cadets in this part of the world. It's not a pretty future.

I see comments like yours as being naive at best and selfish at worst.

It was interesting you brought up flight standards at Jetstar, I wonder why?
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 12:16
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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In answer to your rhetorical question Jack, errr....YES!

Do a search of the previous Senate enquiry. The resulting head burying by both sides of the political fence, even when faced with overwhelming evidence of skuldugery, has been truely breathtaking.

Good wind-up though.
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 12:22
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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If there is a problem with standards at Jetstar, in particular cadetship standards and it is deemed to be an un-acceptable standard then you change the supply/demand equation don't you. More experienced FO requirements would mean the end of cadetships & cadetship pay.

Rather than sit back complaining on this bulletin board about pay & conditions, do something about the root cause.

I'm far from naive, been around a while now. Selfish has nothing to do with it. The situation is what it is, if you have strong concerns with the industry & it's safety standards do something about it.
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 14:13
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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JR if you have been around for a while as you say then you will know that...

if you have strong concerns with the industry & it's safety standards do something about it.
...is easier said than done isn't it?

As an interested bystander I vote with my feet and choose not to fly Jetstar (for a number of reasons).
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Old 2nd Jun 2013, 16:33
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
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cadetship (kəˈdɛtˌʃɪp)


Definitions


noun
the position of being a cadet



cadet (kəˈdɛt Pronunciation for cadet )


Definitions


noun
1.a young person undergoing preliminary training, usually before full entry to the uniformed services, police, etc, esp for officer status
2.a school pupil receiving elementary military training in a school corps
3.(in England and in France before 1789) a gentleman, usually a younger son, who entered the army to prepare for a commission
4.a younger son or brother
5.
See cadet branch

6.(in New Zealand) a person learning sheep farming on a sheep station

Gotta love number 6
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 01:25
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Captain, yes it is much easier said than done. I know for a fact there are people working on this behind the scenes. It wouldn't hurt if some of the people that feel so strongly about this got involved. More than likely it will take an accident before things change, human nature.

I'm with you, I don't and wouldn't fly with them, and a few others for that matter.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 02:27
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 767
It seems this ugly little scheme has surfaced again.

The truth is that this scheme did not ever stop despite a Senate Inquiry and a pending Fairwork Australia prosecution. That is not entirely true, the advanced courses for qualified, but low experience did stop but the ab-initio courses are to this day liberating money from the naive with no prospects other than after 18 months of training, joining a long (and getting longer) queue of graduated cadets under the scheme waiting for an offer of Employment that is not guaranteed. Their plight is only made slightly easier by those lucky ones who find work elsewhere in the industry meantime and those who have resorted to working in maccas or woollies to make ends meet whilst being crippled by VETFEE HELP debt repayments. These guys may find it too hard and be happy to throw an airline career away based on their initial, bad experience after finding something better.

I am told by a few that frustration levels amongst previous cadets are starting to rise, stress levels are on the increase, ratings have long since expired and the lack of regular flying is seriously eroding skills and knowledge.

According to the evidence given by certain witnesses this is preferable to a an experienced pilot with recent command experience who is supposedly contaminated by GA!!

This scheme is morally no better than the 'black money' scheme in 60 minutes last night where scammers con you out of a huge amount of cash under the guise of a fast track to the stars and then, when you are broke, have lost everything and vulnerable the scammers offer you a job as a scammer where you will spend years scamming others, as you were scammed, to make your money back. At least the guy in 60 minutes broke the chain and I hope his wife sees that he realises he put his family's financial future at serious risk, has let them down and has tried to do the right thing. Hopefully they can put their differences behind them and be together as a family in the future.

I think it is time for a little 'Game Change' of our own as until we get a smoking hole attitudes within the airlines and particularly Jetstar will not change.

To do so requires the support of as many pilots as possible writing to your MP not about the Cadetship type arrangements, CASA has already demonstrated its shortsighted and unhelpful position by simply referring to the regs and saying its legally ok therefore we are virtually powerless.

We must address the thing that allows the cadet ships generally to survive. MONEY. It's a little like the boats coming from Indonesia, stop the boats and you will stop the transfer of money to those people smugglers that profit from it and they will move on eventually the boat will stop.

VETFEE Help is the only reason cadetships survive today in the Australian Aviation Industry - the airlines don't want to pay and without help most, if not all, have a spare 100k floating around without asking mother and father. Remove the finance that supports these schemes and there will be less cadets being able to afford the cost to participate in them and less opportunity for employers to benefit from naive individuals with easy access to a large government backed loan - without any hint of credit checking or an assessmenr of ability to repay. Aviation is a worldwide industry, leave Australia and your payments stop. Hey Wayne if your looking for ways to stem the deficit START HERE!!

Accountants at Jetstar and the Training Organisations see this as a revenue stream, nothing more. However they know that they cannot access it without an individual who is willing to sign for it. The lure for the Con: the hope of bypassing the hard yards of GA and making it directly to the glamour of a right hand seat of a High Capacity RPT will 177 fare paying passengers on board. Reality check: it is not glamorous anymore and there is a long long queue of graduates in front of you. They thought they could employ cadets for $36000 a year at the beginning but that did not last long since I exposed the scheme for what is was two years ago. It is no accident that the number of graduated Jetstar cadets actually being offered employment has slowed dramatically yet with the high number of those graduates waiting hopefully for the call there are still plenty entering the Cadetship at the bottom quietly given the details of the scheme are nowhere to be found on Jetstar's website.

How do we do this??

Using VETFEE help for the Commercial Pilots Licence is illegal under the Higher Education Support Act as this is a Certificate IV level qualification. VETFEE Help is only meant to fund the training for an instrument rating and multi engine endorsement. About $25k at the most.

Hey Julia, let Wayne and Chris Bowen know that your Government is authorising and paying out tens of millions of dollars in training funding that is not permitted by the laws that your government debated and passed!! You are in appropriately spending public money!!

.....and then to make matters worse your Government is opening up the migration system to, not only 457 pilots but, wait for it, Permanent Residency!! Show me where the shortage is if your Government Department CASA says it is perfectly acceptable for a newly qualified Commercial Pilots with an Instrument Rating and a massive 150 hours under their belt (70 in command) in a small training aircraft to be second in command on an aircraft carrying 177 of your countrymen and women....maybe even you!!!

I have posted on other threads explaining the detail.

We must take our fight to the Government since they are signing off the course approvals for the training providers.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

Last edited by The Kelpie; 4th Jun 2013 at 00:56.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 03:47
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Good on you Kelpie

Do you hear from anybody who posts on here complaining of these schemes offering to get involved?

And another point, I question the intelligence of any future cadet who signs up for these schemes knowing the possible outcomes. I wouldn't want this type of person in the front of an aircraft I'm passenger in. If they are young and naive, where are their parents? Isn't it a simple matter of calculating the cost, working out the repayments, looking at the remuneration, then the bottom line?
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 04:17
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 102
If they are young and naive, where are their parents?
Their parents are funding the rest of training. Most cadets I fly with usually come from a financially secure background.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 04:38
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 92
I know about 5 Jetstar cadets and they are all FOs now. In fact, I don't know anyone that is still waiting.

Having said that, it would be interesting to know how many people are actually waiting. These guys got in as soon as the scheme started..

The Kelpie,

No one is crippled by Fee Help repayments until they earn over 56k, so they would be keeping the usual amount of cash if they are slogging it out at a supermarket, unless the supermarket in question is on an oil rig.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 04:43
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 767

The Kelpie,

No one is crippled by Fee Help repayments until they earn over 56k, so they would be keeping the usual amount of cash if they are slogging it out at a supermarket, unless the supermarket in question is on an oil rig.
Yes I am aware of that but the debt keeps growing annually while it is not being paid off and it does not appear on credit reference agency records and is therefore invisible.

Crippled does not necessarily mean in cash flow.

The following example is a sarcastic example of how lives change and life choices altered. Sorry for this it is usually not my style but sometimes, whilst respecting the opinions of others I sometimes don't think my point gets through so I have to dumb it down.

Scenario: young cadet pilot with hot partner both want to move their relationship to the next level and buy a property and move in together. The pair go to bank for a home loan.

On assessing both their incomes the back advises that on face value, despite a poor first officer's salary it would be willing to lend $400k. Great they both think, should get something nice for that!!

Then the dreaded tquestion about other borrowings. These are loaded questions cause the bank already knows what you owe!! They are there to detect honesty. Now the dilemma. Do I tell them about my FEEHELP debt?? If you do they will only lend you $250k knowing that you owe $100k to the Government without an asset to show for it. On top of that you owe $100k to your employer as well!! Hmmm. The bank now sees that your ability to repay a bank loan is seriously in doubt and you are knocked back!

Don't tell them and when they check your payslips and tax return they will see it there so you will be seen as not disclosing.

Hot partner gets frustrated by the amount of financial baggage you are bringing into the relationship and the affect it is having on both your ability to buy the house you both want. Life choices are affected and relationship becomes stressed, may even break.

It's ok you say, in 6 years I will make Captain and we will be able to afford the house. Hot partner says ok, call me when that happens and if I am still single then we can hook up.




More to Follow

The Kelpie

Last edited by The Kelpie; 4th Jun 2013 at 00:48.
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Old 3rd Jun 2013, 04:57
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 954
The debt only goes up by CPI, if you are going to go into debt for something it's the cheapest money you will ever get. For any degree it's better to use the HELP schemes than to get a personal loan or redraw on a mortgage.
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