Just curious about how to recover from a wing drop at the stall
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Just curious about how to recover from a wing drop at the stall
Talked to a GFPT qualified student about how he was taught to recover from a practice stall with a wing drop. He flies at a country flying school that has 152 and 172's. He said his instructor teaches him to pick up the dropped wing with full rudder while keeping the ailerons central. In other words skid the aircraft until the wings are level then use aileron as needed after that.
Seems a most unusual technique. Anyone ever heard of that one?
Seems a most unusual technique. Anyone ever heard of that one?
Last edited by Tee Emm; 12th Apr 2013 at 09:57.
Pull back on the stick to stretch the glide. You won't make the runway pushing forward. Be sure to use opposite ailerons to keep wings level and if you get some wing drop, apply full rudder in the direction of the drop to help it out. Why would you apply opposite rudder?
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Stall + full rudder would work; as long as you know the spin recovery technique.
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to the OP...
Are you a pilot? are you training to be a pilot?
If not, then, this is the way to recover from a 'stall/spin' - you relax the control yoke (or stick), possibly push forward, apply full opposite rudder to arrest the spin, and when the spin is stopped then deal with the stall.
If you are training to be a pilot, have a long conversation, and some practice time with your instructor.
If you are a pilot, then go find an instructor and have a long conversation and some practice time - you may be dangerous to yourself and your passengers.
Are you a pilot? are you training to be a pilot?
If not, then, this is the way to recover from a 'stall/spin' - you relax the control yoke (or stick), possibly push forward, apply full opposite rudder to arrest the spin, and when the spin is stopped then deal with the stall.
If you are training to be a pilot, have a long conversation, and some practice time with your instructor.
If you are a pilot, then go find an instructor and have a long conversation and some practice time - you may be dangerous to yourself and your passengers.
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If I'm not mistaken, Tee Emm is trying to say that following a stall with a wing drop (ie the yoke has been pushed forward and power applied, the aircraft is no longer in a stalled condition) that this student was using full opposite rudder to level the wings instead of using the aileron as one would normally do.
Its a wing drop, not a spin
Its a wing drop, not a spin
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I think the OP is getting at it being strange that the pilot is being taught to level the wings with rudder.
Sounds like Tee Em's belief, which I share, is use rudder to stop the yaw while simultaneously relaxing the back pressure to stop the stall. Once this had been done, the aircraft will no longer be stalled, and the aircraft can be rolled back to wings level with ailerons. If anyone believes this use of ailerons will create a second stall, you need to go up and try it out for yourself.
Of course, know your individual aircraft, but using ailerons after stopping the yaw and stall in your garden variety light aircraft is unlikely to cause any problems.
Anyway, looking forward to more banter and the weekend warrior experts shooting me down.
EDIT - the above poster beat me to it! Stupid ipad keyboard is too slow!
Sounds like Tee Em's belief, which I share, is use rudder to stop the yaw while simultaneously relaxing the back pressure to stop the stall. Once this had been done, the aircraft will no longer be stalled, and the aircraft can be rolled back to wings level with ailerons. If anyone believes this use of ailerons will create a second stall, you need to go up and try it out for yourself.
Of course, know your individual aircraft, but using ailerons after stopping the yaw and stall in your garden variety light aircraft is unlikely to cause any problems.
Anyway, looking forward to more banter and the weekend warrior experts shooting me down.
EDIT - the above poster beat me to it! Stupid ipad keyboard is too slow!
Last edited by VH-FTS; 12th Apr 2013 at 12:10.
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Tee Emm, I taught that technique when I first started instructing. Sadly it's not as uncommon as we would like to think.
While we're being picky, it's neither "push forward" nor "relax back pressure". The one results in unnecessary height loss if trimmed nose down, the other has no effect if trimmed into a stall (eg steep turn at full power, trimmed for slow flight). I now use "move the stick forward until..." as it covers every trim state, from basic stall right through to spin.
Too picky? Ah well... Cheers anyway, O8
While we're being picky, it's neither "push forward" nor "relax back pressure". The one results in unnecessary height loss if trimmed nose down, the other has no effect if trimmed into a stall (eg steep turn at full power, trimmed for slow flight). I now use "move the stick forward until..." as it covers every trim state, from basic stall right through to spin.
Too picky? Ah well... Cheers anyway, O8
Seems a most unusual technique. Anyone ever heard of that one?
Yet there is little doubt it is just another one of many flying school myths taught as fact by new instructors who learned from their instructors and so on. While training aircraft are not supposed to sharply drop a wing at point of stall (they would not pass the original certification tests if that happened) a wing drop could happen if the aircraft was mis-rigged for example; in which case the maintenance release must be endorsed as aircraft un-airworthy.
Almost all current training aircraft from the "old" Cessna 150's to the latest hot training ships have ailerons that remain effective beyond the critical angle. They are designed that way. In which case the ailerons may be used to regain or maintain lateral control in association with the rudder.
For example an extract from the Boeing 737 flight crew training manual states: At the first indication of stall smoothly advance the thrust levers to maximum thrust and adjust the pitch attitude as needed to avoid the ground.
Simultaneously level the wings (My highlighting) .
Note -there is no reference to using the rudders to level the wings. .
It is instructive to read what the 1975 Department of Transport Flight Instructors Handbook has to say about recovery when the wing drops.
Quote: "Use the standard recovery, ie simultaneous use of power and forward movement of the contol column. In addition rudder must be used to prevent the nose of the aeroplane yawing into the direction of the lowered wing. The ailerons should be held neutral until control is regained when the wings should be levelled."
Again, note the wording "to prevent the nose of the aeroplane yawing into the direction of the lowered wing" Nothing there either about levelling the wings with rudder.
The simultaneous unstalling of the wings by lowering the angle of attack and increasing power (slipstream) means control has been regained. As long as sufficient rudder is held initially to prevent the dropped wing from going down further, then the wings are levelled normally by aileron.
It is a potentially dangerous teaching to state any wing drop should be picked up by rudder alone and the aircraft skidded with ailerons neutral until the wings are level. Doing that at the point of stall is asking for entry into a spin in the direction of the applied rudder, especially as high power is applied at the same time.
Since all new grade 3 instructors are supposed to be initially tested by CASA approved testing officers, it makes you wonder what these testing officers are letting through the system if the "picking up the dropped wing with rudder" myth is allowed to perpetuate.
Last edited by Centaurus; 12th Apr 2013 at 13:43.
Yes the term "pick up" the wing with rudder is used, but all it does is stop the wing from dropping any further. I've never heard of it being taught as a way to level the wings..?
Un stalling the wing is something altogether different, but there ain't much point un stalling with the nose attitude low and at a high and increasing angle of bank so may as well stop the rolling first..
Lets get real tho.. The majority of training aircraft 152s and 172s etc are so ridiculously stable, that you would have to do everything wrong, and then hold all those stupid control inputs for quite a period of time to get yourself into real trouble ( unless your close to the ground, then trouble may arrive sooner than later.) .
Having taught spinning, the hilarious "choose your own adventure" recovery techniques I've seen even after solid briefings would make yours eyes water, and the aircraft still wants to sort it's self out and recover...
Next time you have some time to kill, go fly around with the stall warning going at all times ( might be best to start at altitude..) climb, descend and turn etc all with the stall going off.
A lot of people are sh1t scared of flight at those speeds and attitudes..
There's not much need for the fear in most training aircraft.
Un stalling the wing is something altogether different, but there ain't much point un stalling with the nose attitude low and at a high and increasing angle of bank so may as well stop the rolling first..
Lets get real tho.. The majority of training aircraft 152s and 172s etc are so ridiculously stable, that you would have to do everything wrong, and then hold all those stupid control inputs for quite a period of time to get yourself into real trouble ( unless your close to the ground, then trouble may arrive sooner than later.) .
Having taught spinning, the hilarious "choose your own adventure" recovery techniques I've seen even after solid briefings would make yours eyes water, and the aircraft still wants to sort it's self out and recover...
Next time you have some time to kill, go fly around with the stall warning going at all times ( might be best to start at altitude..) climb, descend and turn etc all with the stall going off.
A lot of people are sh1t scared of flight at those speeds and attitudes..
There's not much need for the fear in most training aircraft.
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I may go a little of the original topic here, but spin recovery technique needs to be considered in order to understand the logic of using rudder to 'pick up' a wing that has stalled:
In lighties, at first sign of a wing-drop (i.e. commencement of auto-rotation or a spin), it is important to STOP rotation initially with rudder; whilst the ailerons and elevator are held neutral. Some instructors incorrectly refer to this as 'picking up the wing', but the intention is simply to prevent further rotation so that a normal recovery can be made; not return the aircraft to wings level with rudder alone.
Stopping the rotation BEFORE applying forward elevator is critical if flying something like a Pitts special, or Decathalon etc, because when full opposite rudder and full forward stick are applied simultaneously, a 'crossover' can occur, where you'll quickly find yourself in an inverted spin. The problem is; unless you've seen it before, it's very hard to diagnose. There have been several fatal accidents where this has occurred. The pilot thinks he/she has applied spin recovery controls, but instead has now applied pro-inverted spin controls and never recovers. The most effective spin recovery in most light aircraft is full opposite rudder, neutral aileron and elevator, then recover once rotation has stopped.
Aircraft that are not approved for spinning, or aircraft that are not loaded within correct CoG limits, may not recover from a full spin unless full forward stick is applied ONCE ROTATION HAS STOPPED. In some aircraft, with full forward elevator, the tail plane can be blanked partially from clean airflow, and can reduce or null the effect of rudder, hence it's important to stop the rotation with full opposite rudder whilst the elevator is neutral.
Another thing that I have observed being taught with regards to normal stall recovery (i.e. coordinated flight), is the use of excessive, or even full forward elevator. In most cases, full forward elevator is not required to recover from a normal stall. The idea of teaching stall recovery is to have the pilot recognize the approach to the stall, recognize the stall, and recover the aircraft to normal controlled flight with a MINIMUM OF HEIGHT LOSS.
My bolding is because most people are expensive with height loss in a stall recovery. As it is most likely that an inadvertent stall will occur at lower heights, minimizing height loss is of the essence. Think about the stick possition change required to get the aircraft from the Critical AoA, to the stall; you only need to move the stick back that last centimeter or so to enter the stall. Therefore, returning the stick back to the last position before it stalled (i.e. about a poofteenth forward), will not only un-stall the wing, but will put you at or near the critical angle where max coefficient of lift occurs. With the addition of full power, a max effort recovery can occur, minimizing height lost.
Of course, as Centaurus demonstrated, the manufacturer will specify procedures specific to the aircraft type. My point; RTFM!
Dash
In lighties, at first sign of a wing-drop (i.e. commencement of auto-rotation or a spin), it is important to STOP rotation initially with rudder; whilst the ailerons and elevator are held neutral. Some instructors incorrectly refer to this as 'picking up the wing', but the intention is simply to prevent further rotation so that a normal recovery can be made; not return the aircraft to wings level with rudder alone.
Stopping the rotation BEFORE applying forward elevator is critical if flying something like a Pitts special, or Decathalon etc, because when full opposite rudder and full forward stick are applied simultaneously, a 'crossover' can occur, where you'll quickly find yourself in an inverted spin. The problem is; unless you've seen it before, it's very hard to diagnose. There have been several fatal accidents where this has occurred. The pilot thinks he/she has applied spin recovery controls, but instead has now applied pro-inverted spin controls and never recovers. The most effective spin recovery in most light aircraft is full opposite rudder, neutral aileron and elevator, then recover once rotation has stopped.
Aircraft that are not approved for spinning, or aircraft that are not loaded within correct CoG limits, may not recover from a full spin unless full forward stick is applied ONCE ROTATION HAS STOPPED. In some aircraft, with full forward elevator, the tail plane can be blanked partially from clean airflow, and can reduce or null the effect of rudder, hence it's important to stop the rotation with full opposite rudder whilst the elevator is neutral.
Another thing that I have observed being taught with regards to normal stall recovery (i.e. coordinated flight), is the use of excessive, or even full forward elevator. In most cases, full forward elevator is not required to recover from a normal stall. The idea of teaching stall recovery is to have the pilot recognize the approach to the stall, recognize the stall, and recover the aircraft to normal controlled flight with a MINIMUM OF HEIGHT LOSS.
My bolding is because most people are expensive with height loss in a stall recovery. As it is most likely that an inadvertent stall will occur at lower heights, minimizing height loss is of the essence. Think about the stick possition change required to get the aircraft from the Critical AoA, to the stall; you only need to move the stick back that last centimeter or so to enter the stall. Therefore, returning the stick back to the last position before it stalled (i.e. about a poofteenth forward), will not only un-stall the wing, but will put you at or near the critical angle where max coefficient of lift occurs. With the addition of full power, a max effort recovery can occur, minimizing height lost.
Of course, as Centaurus demonstrated, the manufacturer will specify procedures specific to the aircraft type. My point; RTFM!
Dash
Last edited by Dash 42; 12th Apr 2013 at 15:24.
What do you do before the spin recovery?
Thanks for your posts Centaurus and Dash 42.
What do you do before the spin recovery?
I was taught this;
+ throttle closed
+ ailerons central
+ identify spin direction, using the turn needle (works in IMC and works in an inverted spin).
Then
+ recover, using the manufacturers recommended technique.
PS
Someone asked if the OP is a pilot?
Do a search on the threads started be Tee Emm, read some of his posts. They are some of the most insightful observations and comments on PPRUNE. He sounds like the real deal to me.
What do you do before the spin recovery?
I was taught this;
+ throttle closed
+ ailerons central
+ identify spin direction, using the turn needle (works in IMC and works in an inverted spin).
Then
+ recover, using the manufacturers recommended technique.
PS
Someone asked if the OP is a pilot?
Do a search on the threads started be Tee Emm, read some of his posts. They are some of the most insightful observations and comments on PPRUNE. He sounds like the real deal to me.
Last edited by pithblot; 12th Apr 2013 at 16:15.