Just curious about how to recover from a wing drop at the stall
I think the key actions to be taught are to use only enough rudder to stop the wing dropping further while simultaneously unstalling the wings ASAP with power and forward stick (ailerons neutral).
Almost immediately then you'll be able to use aileron to level the wings and climb away.
The worrying thing to me reading some of these responses is the talk of using heaps of rudder before unstalling, the thought of which should, I hope, start alarm bells ringing about inadvertent spins.
Almost immediately then you'll be able to use aileron to level the wings and climb away.
The worrying thing to me reading some of these responses is the talk of using heaps of rudder before unstalling, the thought of which should, I hope, start alarm bells ringing about inadvertent spins.
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Some would say that prevention is better than cure.
I've done a fair amount of flying and the only time I've stalled is when touching down and during lessons with instructors. Works for me !
I've done a fair amount of flying and the only time I've stalled is when touching down and during lessons with instructors. Works for me !
It is a potentially dangerous teaching to state any wing drop should be picked up by rudder alone and the aircraft skidded with ailerons neutral until the wings are level. Doing that at the point of stall is asking for entry into a spin in the direction of the applied rudder, especially as high power is applied at the same time
I was taught the same "pick up wing with rudder" and the CFI/ATO (ex Roulette) passed me same as he passed all the previous.
Was docile enough in a Cherokee but once I was instructing in other machines
Unstalling the aircraft removes the reason for the rolling. Full opposite rudder makes things VERY exciting
I was taught the same "pick up wing with rudder" and the CFI/ATO (ex Roulette) passed me same as he passed all the previous.
Notwithstanding granting a pass or otherwise, it would greatly surprise me if whoever it was you're talking about would teach picking a wing up with rudder. The RAAF way ever since I got involved with it (early 80s) was to use rudder only to 'prevent further yaw', which practically means use only enough to stop the wing drop, not pick it back up to wings level (which is just asking for an autorotation in my view).
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Have a think about what you are actually saying when you say "pick up a wing with rudder."
Scenario: Aircraft drops a wing in the stall and the nose drops and you are looking directly at the ground.
How are you going to pick up a wing with rudder? Which one has dropped? Neither!
The rudder prevents further yaw, aka spinning.
Scenario: Aircraft drops a wing in the stall and the nose drops and you are looking directly at the ground.
How are you going to pick up a wing with rudder? Which one has dropped? Neither!
The rudder prevents further yaw, aka spinning.
Well.... it was 20 years ago now... but the briefing notes all say the same thing.
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WTF!!!!!! some of these posts are hilarious while others make me wonder to what depths our instructors have fallen to with their own initial training. I think Frank A sums it up nicely lol lol lol 
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If your near your landing phase just a few feet over the runway with a low speed, and have a sudden lack of lift "Windsear" on one wing, you should use opposite rudder, as using the yoke or stick, to lift the wing would only give the stalled wing a higher angle of the chord-line "stall angle" and would just worsen the stall.
Opposite rudder and Power and neural stick or yoke...
For Spins I learned the Portuguese word Stop "Pare"
Wiki it...
PARE stands for:
Opposite rudder and Power and neural stick or yoke...
For Spins I learned the Portuguese word Stop "Pare"
Wiki it...
PARE stands for:
- Power: idle
- Ailerons: neutral (and flaps up)
- Rudder: full opposite to the spin and held in that position
- Elevator: through neutral
- Rudder: neutral
- Elevator: easy pull to straight and level or a climbing attitude
??????
Actually, should the argument be...."Should ab-initio pilots learn on aircraft with similar characteristics to a Tiger Moth?"
That way...real pilots will learn about real handling. Instead, learning how to drive a spam can around the sky creates deficiencies. Modern aircraft do have designed in features that make them safe. You can use ailerons to pick up a dropped wing because it will not adversely yaw.....does this make for a better pilot?
Actually, should the argument be...."Should ab-initio pilots learn on aircraft with similar characteristics to a Tiger Moth?"
That way...real pilots will learn about real handling. Instead, learning how to drive a spam can around the sky creates deficiencies. Modern aircraft do have designed in features that make them safe. You can use ailerons to pick up a dropped wing because it will not adversely yaw.....does this make for a better pilot?
If your near your landing phase just a few feet over the runway with a low speed, and have a sudden lack of lift "Windsear" on one wing, you should use opposite rudder, as using the yoke or stick, to lift the wing would only give the stalled wing a higher angle of the chord-line "stall angle" and would just worsen the stall.
Using rudder like that during the landing phase - no wonder you Europeans have so many runway excursions...
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If your near your landing phase just a few feet over the runway with a low speed, and have a sudden lack of lift "Windsear" on one wing, you should use opposite rudder,
That's covered in the primary and secondary effects of flight controls, lesson 1.
The primary effect of rudder is yaw. Secondary effect is roll.
Why on earth would you attempt to pick up a dropped wing with rudder 5 ft off the ground whilst relying on roll as a secondary effect? Why not just use the ailerons? Better that than dragging a wing on the ground. If you're that close to the ground better off stalling straight and level!
I think this debate is separating into those who learned in the tail dragger era vs the spam can era. Close to the stall in many old aircraft, you have nearly no aileron effectiveness or can you kind of have control reversal where trying to pick up a wing with aileron increases its angle of attack to the point of stall - causing further wing drop. Most modern aircraft have dealt with this by making the inboard wing stall first through washout or stall strips or sometimes by changing airfoil completely for the outboard section. Biplanes often make one wing stall first to aid aileron control. Rigging changes to make upgoing aileron's travel more than yaw - drag inducing downgoing ailerons helps aileron effectiveness near the stall too.
Something like a tapered wing cherokee you can be lazy and just use aileron. But try that on anything made by De Haviland, Auster, a short wing Piper, possible even an old Cherokee 140 and you'll be pretty disappointed. Even the Seneca - which has the old Piper constant chord wing, responds better to rudder to pick up a wing on short final.
I can't believe there can be this discussion on a pilot forum. All those who answered aileron should grab a Cessna aerobat and try some flying a couple of knots above stall. Try a " falling leaf" manoever. Use rudder and you'll keep it upright -aileron will tip you into a spin. And maybe read Eric Mullers book on aerobatics (which from memory was very good on spins) - or Neil Williams book, or many others. Try Rich Stowell's , Bud Davisson, Sparky Imerson or even to RAA Aus websites.
My old mentor Ken McKechnie made me fly at the stall endlessly in the pitts, both in level flight and in loops. We could loop the 2 place with 2 up well below normal cruise. At the top of the loop I'd be actively working the rudder, but holding the ailerons still. A touch of aileron and we'd fall off in a spin (anyone who thinks this would be an inverted spin should go to the back of the room), but keep the nose straight and it will drop to get you around the loop.
Something like a tapered wing cherokee you can be lazy and just use aileron. But try that on anything made by De Haviland, Auster, a short wing Piper, possible even an old Cherokee 140 and you'll be pretty disappointed. Even the Seneca - which has the old Piper constant chord wing, responds better to rudder to pick up a wing on short final.
I can't believe there can be this discussion on a pilot forum. All those who answered aileron should grab a Cessna aerobat and try some flying a couple of knots above stall. Try a " falling leaf" manoever. Use rudder and you'll keep it upright -aileron will tip you into a spin. And maybe read Eric Mullers book on aerobatics (which from memory was very good on spins) - or Neil Williams book, or many others. Try Rich Stowell's , Bud Davisson, Sparky Imerson or even to RAA Aus websites.
My old mentor Ken McKechnie made me fly at the stall endlessly in the pitts, both in level flight and in loops. We could loop the 2 place with 2 up well below normal cruise. At the top of the loop I'd be actively working the rudder, but holding the ailerons still. A touch of aileron and we'd fall off in a spin (anyone who thinks this would be an inverted spin should go to the back of the room), but keep the nose straight and it will drop to get you around the loop.
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As far as I'm concerned - anyone who applies rudder near the stall while I'm in the plane is getting a karate chop. The wing often dropped in light aircraft I flew (PA28, C152, Robin 200, PA44). Lower the nose whilst smoothly increasing power and then pick up the wing once properly unstalled. The training process is about getting a habit like response, that you understand and can apply quickly to recover what could be a very dangerous situation.
Bare in mind this is training - a practice manoeuvre - you're primed for the stall anyway, if the wing drops, it drops. In real life, should it unexpectedly happen, pissing around with the rudder in or near the stall could be bad news.
PERFECT practice makes perfect. Not practice makes perfect.
Bare in mind this is training - a practice manoeuvre - you're primed for the stall anyway, if the wing drops, it drops. In real life, should it unexpectedly happen, pissing around with the rudder in or near the stall could be bad news.
PERFECT practice makes perfect. Not practice makes perfect.
Last edited by WhyByFlier; 13th Apr 2013 at 07:50.
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If a wing drops at low speed and low altitude, treat the experience as life threatening. Understand the consequences and decide whether rudder pedals are for foot rests or for some other reason.
If you need to understand the function of the rudder, fly a PA-28 (preferably at altitude), 1500 RPM in a nose high attitude until stall buffett and work hard on those pedals to see if you can fly all day like that. If you're up to it.
Then in level flight find a fixed point on the near horizon and rock your wings 30 degrees at any speed while keeping the nose on the object. You will then understand what rudder pedals are for.
PS: Don't take up aerobatics until you can master those basic skills.
Better still, don't pretend to be an aviator when you are only a pilot.
If you need to understand the function of the rudder, fly a PA-28 (preferably at altitude), 1500 RPM in a nose high attitude until stall buffett and work hard on those pedals to see if you can fly all day like that. If you're up to it.
Then in level flight find a fixed point on the near horizon and rock your wings 30 degrees at any speed while keeping the nose on the object. You will then understand what rudder pedals are for.
PS: Don't take up aerobatics until you can master those basic skills.
Better still, don't pretend to be an aviator when you are only a pilot.
Last edited by Frank Arouet; 13th Apr 2013 at 09:04. Reason: spelling police may get me when I'm trying to educate.
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Here is a pretty neat video made to help address the number of ag accidents involving aircraft 'falling' out of turns a few years back.
This guy is an ex-Navy fighter pilot, ex-Ag pilot and current airshow pilot/aerobatics instructor. Three disciplines that really explore the envelope.
This guy is an ex-Navy fighter pilot, ex-Ag pilot and current airshow pilot/aerobatics instructor. Three disciplines that really explore the envelope.
Last edited by Warbo; 13th Apr 2013 at 10:09.
Wading in...sorry to be an old traditionalist.
Where did the standard stall recovery (SSR) go? No real mystery, it works for all light aircraft no matter the era of manufacture...the aim of the SSR is to recover the aircraft to unstalled flight with minimum height loss.
In terms of the training manoeuvre, to recognise a stall you must know the symptoms which are as follows:
High nose attitude,
Slow and decreasing airspeed,
audio warning (if fitted),
light to moderate buffet
By continuing beyond this incipient stage, having recognised the symptoms, you will then see the indications of the stall:
Nose drop
Possible wing drop
Heavy buffet
High rate of descent
The SSR consists of the following actions in all light aircraft.
Simultaneously:
stick forward sufficient to unstall the wing
select full power
rudder to prevent further yaw
Once the wing is unstalled:
roll wings level with aileron
smoothly select climb attitude (so as not to re-enter the stall)
A sensible addition is to perform some checks to determine what happened in order to prevent recurrence.
NB: the phrase "sufficient to unstall the wing" means just that, and a SSR does not imply hurtling towards the ground, especially if you are at low level.
As you all know in your hearts, there is no circumstance where it is right "to pick up the wing with rudder" when in or near the stall. The rudder is to prevent further yaw only. The yaw may be evident to you as wing drop, but that does not mean you use rudder to pick up the wing...only to stop further yaw. Once the wing is unstalled, roll wings level with aileron.
Use of rudder "to pick up the wing" when close to the stall in a light aircraft is called "the spin entry technique"...that actually applies to all light aircraft.
Hope this helps? One may also choose to note upright stalls are associated with an aft control column position...hence the first noted input for simultaneous action in the SSR.
In terms of the training manoeuvre, to recognise a stall you must know the symptoms which are as follows:
High nose attitude,
Slow and decreasing airspeed,
audio warning (if fitted),
light to moderate buffet
By continuing beyond this incipient stage, having recognised the symptoms, you will then see the indications of the stall:
Nose drop
Possible wing drop
Heavy buffet
High rate of descent
The SSR consists of the following actions in all light aircraft.
Simultaneously:
stick forward sufficient to unstall the wing
select full power
rudder to prevent further yaw
Once the wing is unstalled:
roll wings level with aileron
smoothly select climb attitude (so as not to re-enter the stall)
A sensible addition is to perform some checks to determine what happened in order to prevent recurrence.
NB: the phrase "sufficient to unstall the wing" means just that, and a SSR does not imply hurtling towards the ground, especially if you are at low level.
As you all know in your hearts, there is no circumstance where it is right "to pick up the wing with rudder" when in or near the stall. The rudder is to prevent further yaw only. The yaw may be evident to you as wing drop, but that does not mean you use rudder to pick up the wing...only to stop further yaw. Once the wing is unstalled, roll wings level with aileron.
Use of rudder "to pick up the wing" when close to the stall in a light aircraft is called "the spin entry technique"...that actually applies to all light aircraft.
Hope this helps? One may also choose to note upright stalls are associated with an aft control column position...hence the first noted input for simultaneous action in the SSR.
Last edited by DBTW; 13th Apr 2013 at 10:19.
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Do not apply 737 / jet aircraft stall recovery techniques to other aircraft!
