Snag Sheets And Maintenance Releases, or "It always does that!"
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Snag Sheets And Maintenance Releases, or "It always does that!"
When is an aircraft defect a defect and how is a pilot expected to know?
Given that us lowly drivers are not qualified by law to determine the serviceability of an aircraft, how can any pilot make a determination of serviceability beyond the simple Yes/No INOP entry or a gauge reading in the red? A MEL will fix some of it - if you have one.
Being a law abiding pilot, I have occasionally referred things that I thought might be defects to the Engineers, only to be told "It always does that" and shown the fix - like tapping those bloody Tobago ribbon gauges. I've made the occasional phone call too.
So is a leaking oleo that is still within limits a reason for an MR entry? An unreliable gauge? A missing or broken bit of trim? A rough running engine that turns out to be a worn linkage,- which the mechanic adjusts to get a few more hours out of it before replacement, God help you if you write all these issues down on a piece of paper - then you have created a snag sheet, which is verboten.
When is a defect a defect?
Given that us lowly drivers are not qualified by law to determine the serviceability of an aircraft, how can any pilot make a determination of serviceability beyond the simple Yes/No INOP entry or a gauge reading in the red? A MEL will fix some of it - if you have one.
Being a law abiding pilot, I have occasionally referred things that I thought might be defects to the Engineers, only to be told "It always does that" and shown the fix - like tapping those bloody Tobago ribbon gauges. I've made the occasional phone call too.
So is a leaking oleo that is still within limits a reason for an MR entry? An unreliable gauge? A missing or broken bit of trim? A rough running engine that turns out to be a worn linkage,- which the mechanic adjusts to get a few more hours out of it before replacement, God help you if you write all these issues down on a piece of paper - then you have created a snag sheet, which is verboten.
When is a defect a defect?
Last edited by Sunfish; 19th Mar 2013 at 18:31.
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When is a defect a defect?
Actually it's not really a culture of denial, just an aversion to spending money or potentially losing money if the thing becomes u/s as result of you indiscriminate use of the pen.
only to be told "It always does that" and shown the fix - like tapping those bloody Tobago ribbon gauges
Bevan..
It is so sad that this discussion is still going on. What is taught at flying schools these days?
If a defect is found in an aircraft or a component, an endorsement is to be made on the MR. This endorsement does not necessarily ground an aircraft.
You then notify the CP and HAAMC - we are talking AOC holders here.
They make the decision as to the status of the defect. To do this they may have to consult an engineer.
Depending on the category of operation, they need to determine whether the defect;
1. grounds the aircraft; or
2. can it be placarded "unserviceable" (AWK); or
3. has to be fixed (Chtr)
4. has an MEL that can be applied?
5. allows a Permit to Fly to be obtained from CASA.
Maintenance Release | Episode 1 | Out-N-Back | Civil Aviation Safety Authority | CASA
If a defect is found in an aircraft or a component, an endorsement is to be made on the MR. This endorsement does not necessarily ground an aircraft.
You then notify the CP and HAAMC - we are talking AOC holders here.
They make the decision as to the status of the defect. To do this they may have to consult an engineer.
Depending on the category of operation, they need to determine whether the defect;
1. grounds the aircraft; or
2. can it be placarded "unserviceable" (AWK); or
3. has to be fixed (Chtr)
4. has an MEL that can be applied?
5. allows a Permit to Fly to be obtained from CASA.
Maintenance Release | Episode 1 | Out-N-Back | Civil Aviation Safety Authority | CASA
If the unserviceability or fault is such that the next pilot needs to know before flying the aircraft I put it on the MR and tell HAAMC. eg DI unreliable.
Items less than that I would just tell HAAMC. eg left main tyre will soon need replacing.
In both cases HAAMC is told. HAAMC can then follow the steps described by 601.
If I was in any doubt as to which category the fault lies, I would discuss with an instructor, CP, or with HAAMC.
Items less than that I would just tell HAAMC. eg left main tyre will soon need replacing.
In both cases HAAMC is told. HAAMC can then follow the steps described by 601.
If I was in any doubt as to which category the fault lies, I would discuss with an instructor, CP, or with HAAMC.
Last edited by bentleg; 20th Mar 2013 at 01:17.
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601, sage advice except it is meaningless until you or anyone can answer the question posed by Sunfish in the OP.
When is a defect a defect?
As well as questioning what is being taught in flying schools, perhaps you could also question casa on what is a defect, because in the previous discussion on this topic, the only reference I could find in the regs is - a defect is an imperfection.
I think I used the term "50 shades of grey" when describing how that meaning could be interpreted.
Whatever you do, do not write any defects on a piece of paper other than the MR, or famine, pestilence and damnation will befall you. That's for sure. Just ask Barrier.
When is a defect a defect?
As well as questioning what is being taught in flying schools, perhaps you could also question casa on what is a defect, because in the previous discussion on this topic, the only reference I could find in the regs is - a defect is an imperfection.
I think I used the term "50 shades of grey" when describing how that meaning could be interpreted.
Whatever you do, do not write any defects on a piece of paper other than the MR, or famine, pestilence and damnation will befall you. That's for sure. Just ask Barrier.
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Trent, you put it on the MR so those with the appropriate knowledge can decide if it is a defect!
When is a defect a defect?
If the pilot in command becomes aware of a maintenance requirement issued under the Regulations, any damage to the aircraft or any of the aircraft's systems or he/she considers the aircraft has acquired characteristics such as to adversely affect the safety of that aircraft or any other unserviceability of the aircraft or its equipment which affects, or may affect, the satisfactory operation of that aircraft, he/she shall make an entry in the 'Endorsements' column of Part 2 of the Maintenance Release setting out the relevant particulars.
If it is not working, bent, missing, broken, dripping fuel, oil or other fluid, has a bad smell, or just does not look right, if may be defective.
Another way to determine a defect - would you allow your wife, girlfriend, partner, children, grandchildren, mother-in-law to fly in the aircraft. If not, it may be defective.
As a pilot, your job is to inspect the aircraft iaw the inspections/checklists available to you to determine if an aircraft is fit for flight.
If you find anything wrong, you endorse the MR and advise the CP and HAAMC.
If you are a LAME and qualified, you may be able to determine whether the defect will ground the aircraft or enable its continued operation.
Remember a "small leak" may lead to hidden defects that can only be found upon investigation by maintenance staff.
Been there, done that and I am probably here writing this because of the investigation of a very minor oil leak that lead to finding a major internal component defect.
Last edited by 601; 20th Mar 2013 at 02:23.
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Once again sage advice, "bent, broken,missing... no arguments, but then good enough for the "wife, girlfriend,partner..." morphs into "anything wrong", you show that just like everyone else, you have your own standard.
Generally the proximity to an engineering service determines how prepared you are to stick by your own personal standards.
If a youngun were far remote from engineering support with a "very minor oil leak", I wonder if they would be as true to your standard as you suggest they should be.
999 times out of 1,000 the engineering reply will be "that small leak is just a small leak and well within tolerances and why the f#ck are you writing it up all the time". "That will be $300 please, and your boss is ringing you to discuss your future" 
Generally the proximity to an engineering service determines how prepared you are to stick by your own personal standards.
If a youngun were far remote from engineering support with a "very minor oil leak", I wonder if they would be as true to your standard as you suggest they should be.
Remember a "small leak" may lead to hidden defects that can only be found upon investigation by maintenance staff.
Last edited by Trent 972; 20th Mar 2013 at 03:29. Reason: change from 1st person particular
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It really is a pain in the butt.
I am aware of a fresh CPL that was delivering a Liberty XL2 from Bankstown to Moorabbin for the new owner. He noticed what he thought was a crack on the prop. He spoke to the LAME at Bankers and he said it wasn't a crack, it was just paint.
Pilot proceeded to head home but weather socked him in at Merimbula (god only knows why he went that way).
He proceeded to write up the MR with a defect for a cracked prop and caught a commercial flight home and sent the bill to the owner.
- The CPL thought the prop was cracked so he believes he did the right thing.
- The owner had to find a LAME to sign it out before he could pick it up
- Turns out it wasn't a crack it all, it was just the edge of the metal leading edge and the "crack" got bigger between YSBK and Merimbula because the prop had only recently been painted
Who can you blame for that one and how would you have dealt with it? Listening to the LAME might have been a good idea, but the perceived damage did change for the worse so the CPL thought he did the right thing.
I am aware of a fresh CPL that was delivering a Liberty XL2 from Bankstown to Moorabbin for the new owner. He noticed what he thought was a crack on the prop. He spoke to the LAME at Bankers and he said it wasn't a crack, it was just paint.
Pilot proceeded to head home but weather socked him in at Merimbula (god only knows why he went that way).
He proceeded to write up the MR with a defect for a cracked prop and caught a commercial flight home and sent the bill to the owner.
- The CPL thought the prop was cracked so he believes he did the right thing.
- The owner had to find a LAME to sign it out before he could pick it up
- Turns out it wasn't a crack it all, it was just the edge of the metal leading edge and the "crack" got bigger between YSBK and Merimbula because the prop had only recently been painted
Who can you blame for that one and how would you have dealt with it? Listening to the LAME might have been a good idea, but the perceived damage did change for the worse so the CPL thought he did the right thing.
Last edited by VH-XXX; 20th Mar 2013 at 03:48.
but then good enough for the "wife, girlfriend,partner..." morphs into "anything wrong", you show that just like everyone else, you have your own standard.
If you find anything wrong
OK so it may be a torn seat pocket on the back of a seat. Nothing bad about that except that is where we store the pax briefing cards as per the OM. If the seat pocket is torn, no pax card for that location, so where do we legally stand as to the serviceability of the aircraft or the use of that seat. Do we replace the seat? Can the pilot replace the seat?
At least if it endorsed on the MR, it should be fixed.
What is so hard with endorsing a MR and getting it checked?
and why the f#ck are you writing it up all the time
I suppose I can understand how much of a problem it is to determine if a "defect" is a "defect" a little better after this encounter in SE Asia.
A pilot was confronted with a defect in a prop blade.
As we were doing a daily on our aircraft parked next to the aircraft, the captain walked over and asked us to have a look and what should he do.
As we had a LAME in our team, we checked the blade, saw the DEFECT.
It had been hit on the leading edge. By the look of the indentation, it was caused by a machete.
We explained that the aircraft should be grounded as the blade could separate and probably take the engine with it.
To the utter dis-belief of all our crew, the pilot stated in broken English that it would be OK to fly as he had two engines.
This was from no less that a DHC6 Captain.
I have no idea as to the outcome as we had to depart on our flight. When we returned, the Otter was not in sight.
Last edited by 601; 20th Mar 2013 at 04:57.
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I don't doubt that we sing from the same hymn book 601, but to answer your question...
When 'it' happens several hundred nautical miles from the nearest engineer, the nearest overnight accommodations consist of sheets of (if you're lucky) corrugated tin, the sandflies have eaten all the black snakes and the mud is knee deep.
Take it home with a "very minor oil leak" or any defect no matter how minor and casa might be after you, even years later a la Barrier.
Sounds implausible, then read the Barrier thread and when it becomes known how insignificant a lot of the claims against Barrier are, you'll just shake your head and wonder why the rules on reporting defects are so wishy washy.
HF radio u/s, no worries aircraft never leaves the class d CTR. Wrong, casa says it should have been removed or grounded, and on and on it goes.
edit
Quoting from the link you (601) put up earlier in this thread
Are you able to provide a definitive source that spells out the circumstances when one may avail oneself of that condition?
The really big problem is the thousands of pages, across multiple documents that tell you what you can't do.
Where does it simply and concisely tell you what you can do?
What is so hard with endorsing a MR and getting it checked?
Take it home with a "very minor oil leak" or any defect no matter how minor and casa might be after you, even years later a la Barrier.
Sounds implausible, then read the Barrier thread and when it becomes known how insignificant a lot of the claims against Barrier are, you'll just shake your head and wonder why the rules on reporting defects are so wishy washy.
HF radio u/s, no worries aircraft never leaves the class d CTR. Wrong, casa says it should have been removed or grounded, and on and on it goes.
edit
Quoting from the link you (601) put up earlier in this thread
An open endorsement doesn't necessarily mean that aircraft can not be flown. Continued operations under certain conditions may be permissible.
The really big problem is the thousands of pages, across multiple documents that tell you what you can't do.
Where does it simply and concisely tell you what you can do?
Last edited by Trent 972; 20th Mar 2013 at 05:29.
I think I used the term "50 shades of grey" when describing how that meaning could be interpreted.
6.4.4
Failing to enter an unserviceability in the maintenance release is an offence of strict liability.
Penalty: 50 penalty units
(NOTE: 1 penalty unit is 1 stroke of the lash administered by a latex-clad public official or other duly authorised person).
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Trent has hit the nail on the head. It's not whether you enter the defect it's what you do after the defect? If this was clearer I don't think people would have any qualms writing every little snag up.
If a boot has a small nick in the edge from where a refueler hit it with the ladder but it passes the ground check and is inflating well, is the boot US? The item is functioning but it has a defect which has to be repaired.
The question becomes, are pilots adequately qualified to determine if damage or defects render an item inoperable.
If a boot has a small nick in the edge from where a refueler hit it with the ladder but it passes the ground check and is inflating well, is the boot US? The item is functioning but it has a defect which has to be repaired.
The question becomes, are pilots adequately qualified to determine if damage or defects render an item inoperable.
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The question becomes, are pilots adequately qualified to determine if damage or defects render an item inoperable