My folks vs Me - need your advice!
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My folks vs Me - need your advice!
There are no airline "careers" left out there that will provide a good income. Most airlines are no longer organizations that you would event want to work for due to their attitude towards staff.
I agree with all the comments above regarding the RAAF. It is also worth considering that down the road if you wish to get away from engineering or flying they may well allow you to re-train in medicine, law etc.
Cadetships are becoming the preference for airlines for a variety of reasons. You will not learn much about flying from one of these courses. New pilots learn about flying by doing real flying in GA or the RAAF not sitting in an airliner doing the same thing every day.
The only way you should even consider the cadet path is if you are not successful with the RAAF and/or you do not wish to spend lots of money. In that case CX is the only cadetship that I am aware of that is free, but have a good read of the HK forums about its own issues.
Bottom line: use you engineering skills to earn and fly for fun.
I agree with all the comments above regarding the RAAF. It is also worth considering that down the road if you wish to get away from engineering or flying they may well allow you to re-train in medicine, law etc.
Cadetships are becoming the preference for airlines for a variety of reasons. You will not learn much about flying from one of these courses. New pilots learn about flying by doing real flying in GA or the RAAF not sitting in an airliner doing the same thing every day.
The only way you should even consider the cadet path is if you are not successful with the RAAF and/or you do not wish to spend lots of money. In that case CX is the only cadetship that I am aware of that is free, but have a good read of the HK forums about its own issues.
Bottom line: use you engineering skills to earn and fly for fun.
Dartman, a Captain with an airline like Virgin or even a smaller airline like Alliance is earning quite sufficient for these times. Not as much as a lawyer or a dentist or possibly a truck driver in the mines, but I know where I would rather be. If someone can"t live in an Australian coastal city on upwards of $130k, they must have expensive tastes in drugs. The time from starting out in GA to the left seat in one of these jets could be 10 to 12 years, but how long does it take in the other professions to tap into the good money? Not that much less, I surmise.
Given the choice of most other occupations, if I had my time again I would still go the airline path.
Given the choice of most other occupations, if I had my time again I would still go the airline path.
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My folks vs Me - need your advice!
Mach, FO's in the better airlines earn more than DJ/JQ CAPT's, but that is not the point. Those good jobs are no longer available to people entering the industry.
I'm glad you still enjoy the job but I could not recommend it to somebody starting out. Almost all my buddies in a variety of airlines want out and either reeducating or looking at businesses.
I'm glad you still enjoy the job but I could not recommend it to somebody starting out. Almost all my buddies in a variety of airlines want out and either reeducating or looking at businesses.
Engineering graduates are reputed to be the best paid of all. So, bank the money & save.
Pick your engineering job carefully. Try and get some experience that an aviation employer might see value in. Aeroplanes are technical things now more than ever, so that plays to your strengths. The hot buttons at the moment are CRM and SMS. Something that added experience in those areas might help. You should start with whatever aviation based engineering companies are near you - who knows you might get lucky.
Assuming your engineering degree is mechanical based (vs civil engineering, etc), then you should be able to knock off a couple of CPL exams with very little coaching. I would hope you've done enough human factors in your degree to be able to pass that one straight off. Aerodynamics & Performance shouldn't need much study. I'd get into doing them as fast as possible. You can't log CPL lesson time until you do. Buy some trial exams and see how you go.
If you are serious, I'd run straight into ATPL theory while its still fresh in your mind, but it imposes the discipline that you will get to 1,500 hours within the validity of the exam results (3 years?). Certainly, I'd be trying to do ATPL before you loose too much study discipline.
You'll need to build hours, so finding something like glider tow work on weekends would be a good thing. Anything you can get easily, locally (especially with a new PPL) will require that the organisation know & like you. So, be prepared to "hang around" some organisations you like to build relationships. You need to get to the CPL minimum hours as fast as possible and it doesn't matter what in.
You're going to be learning to fly part time for quite a while. I'd be looking to build a relationship with the most reputable school / instructor you can find. You'll be needing a recommendation or reference from them, so its important to pick someone whose recommendation carries weight. At some point you'll be asking someone to waive minimum time requirements to let you fly something. You need a very solid recommendation from a heavy hitter for that.
Pick your engineering job carefully. Try and get some experience that an aviation employer might see value in. Aeroplanes are technical things now more than ever, so that plays to your strengths. The hot buttons at the moment are CRM and SMS. Something that added experience in those areas might help. You should start with whatever aviation based engineering companies are near you - who knows you might get lucky.
Assuming your engineering degree is mechanical based (vs civil engineering, etc), then you should be able to knock off a couple of CPL exams with very little coaching. I would hope you've done enough human factors in your degree to be able to pass that one straight off. Aerodynamics & Performance shouldn't need much study. I'd get into doing them as fast as possible. You can't log CPL lesson time until you do. Buy some trial exams and see how you go.
If you are serious, I'd run straight into ATPL theory while its still fresh in your mind, but it imposes the discipline that you will get to 1,500 hours within the validity of the exam results (3 years?). Certainly, I'd be trying to do ATPL before you loose too much study discipline.
You'll need to build hours, so finding something like glider tow work on weekends would be a good thing. Anything you can get easily, locally (especially with a new PPL) will require that the organisation know & like you. So, be prepared to "hang around" some organisations you like to build relationships. You need to get to the CPL minimum hours as fast as possible and it doesn't matter what in.
You're going to be learning to fly part time for quite a while. I'd be looking to build a relationship with the most reputable school / instructor you can find. You'll be needing a recommendation or reference from them, so its important to pick someone whose recommendation carries weight. At some point you'll be asking someone to waive minimum time requirements to let you fly something. You need a very solid recommendation from a heavy hitter for that.
Just from my experience, you probably will have a more "stable career" as a pilot than an aeronautical engineer in Australia
I think you will find an aeronautical engineer in Australia will be earning the same if not less than a turboprop FO unless he/she is willing to do an avionics/airframe engines apprenticeship and eventually become a LAME. (i actually did an aeronautical engineering degree) and i found that when i graduated uni the money was absolutely peanuts, and ended up going to Qantas and becoming a LAME where the money is. I have mates who graduated as aeronautical engineers at the same time as me and ended up at NAS and other defence force contractors and and they earn less than a jetstar A320 FO (these guys have been aeronautical engineers for 30+ years too), they have less job security than a QF LAME.
I have been at qantas 38 years and it is pretty **** at the moment and it is going to get worse unless something dramatically changes at qantas but i have mates who are LAME's and pilots at Virgin Australia, Tiger, Jetstar, Alliance, Network, Cobham, Skippers and they are fairly stable jobs (compared to a lot of other industries) earning more money than what you would ever earn as an aeronautical engineer in Australia and have slightly more job security than an aeronautical engineer.
But answering some of your other questions i know of several pilots at qantas who started off as Civil engineers and mechanical engineers and gave up engineering and went into GA for several years before getting a SO gig at Qantas. So it is possible, but with the high living costs of living in sydney, brisbane and melbourne i dont think you will be able to afford it without your parents help.
I think you will find an aeronautical engineer in Australia will be earning the same if not less than a turboprop FO unless he/she is willing to do an avionics/airframe engines apprenticeship and eventually become a LAME. (i actually did an aeronautical engineering degree) and i found that when i graduated uni the money was absolutely peanuts, and ended up going to Qantas and becoming a LAME where the money is. I have mates who graduated as aeronautical engineers at the same time as me and ended up at NAS and other defence force contractors and and they earn less than a jetstar A320 FO (these guys have been aeronautical engineers for 30+ years too), they have less job security than a QF LAME.
I have been at qantas 38 years and it is pretty **** at the moment and it is going to get worse unless something dramatically changes at qantas but i have mates who are LAME's and pilots at Virgin Australia, Tiger, Jetstar, Alliance, Network, Cobham, Skippers and they are fairly stable jobs (compared to a lot of other industries) earning more money than what you would ever earn as an aeronautical engineer in Australia and have slightly more job security than an aeronautical engineer.
But answering some of your other questions i know of several pilots at qantas who started off as Civil engineers and mechanical engineers and gave up engineering and went into GA for several years before getting a SO gig at Qantas. So it is possible, but with the high living costs of living in sydney, brisbane and melbourne i dont think you will be able to afford it without your parents help.
Bottums Up
Ross?
There are numerous options aside from parents funding or supporting the cost of flying, many have been suggested already.
I wonder if somewhat fresh out of Uni, you might be thinking that you MUST do this now. Many of us have worked a numerous jobs, saving money to fund flying. After I'd paid my way, at almost 27 & married with 2 kids on gaining my CPL, my mum told me she had the cash set aside for me to learn to fly when I was 18.
Long story short, at 18 I'd have been too interested in the pub and not applied myself as I did when I had family responsibilities. With the benefit of hindsight, I'd not change a thing.
It seems to me that you have the benefit of being able to be employed in the industry whilst you save. This will give you benefits and insights that many of us didn't get.
I disagree with the ney-sayers. Whilst the good old days of secure career flying might not be around anymore, I've been employed with the one company for close to 18 years. I'd like more pay but I don't think I'm on a bad wicket, and for the most part, I'm paid to go to work and have a good time.
Good luck and finally, your life is yours. Respectfully tell your folks you have to make your own decisions and live by them. Probably as your folks did before you were born.
There are numerous options aside from parents funding or supporting the cost of flying, many have been suggested already.
I wonder if somewhat fresh out of Uni, you might be thinking that you MUST do this now. Many of us have worked a numerous jobs, saving money to fund flying. After I'd paid my way, at almost 27 & married with 2 kids on gaining my CPL, my mum told me she had the cash set aside for me to learn to fly when I was 18.
Long story short, at 18 I'd have been too interested in the pub and not applied myself as I did when I had family responsibilities. With the benefit of hindsight, I'd not change a thing.
It seems to me that you have the benefit of being able to be employed in the industry whilst you save. This will give you benefits and insights that many of us didn't get.
I disagree with the ney-sayers. Whilst the good old days of secure career flying might not be around anymore, I've been employed with the one company for close to 18 years. I'd like more pay but I don't think I'm on a bad wicket, and for the most part, I'm paid to go to work and have a good time.
Good luck and finally, your life is yours. Respectfully tell your folks you have to make your own decisions and live by them. Probably as your folks did before you were born.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 12th Jan 2013 at 01:01.
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Young dreams are a precious thing!
That said, if you have a good amount of grey matter, and can use it, go an become a Doctor/Specialist- Accountant, or a gigolo
!
Make enough money, buy your own aeroplane, make sure you have enough money spare to build a brewery,
and throw at the odd female.
Dont take a wife,
just the odd hostage
every now and then:
Aviation is a
F--ked industry,
Dont believe me, then spend 35 years in it! and yes I love to fly
, cant get enough, I just wish I had become a heroin
addict, would have been cheaper:
The biggest bug bear for me, is the industry has no integrity, the 45's & under with university degrees, and their way of dealing with people both older, & younger than themselves have a different set of morals, and a different brand of integrity:
H/Snort:
!Make enough money, buy your own aeroplane, make sure you have enough money spare to build a brewery,
and throw at the odd female.Dont take a wife,
just the odd hostage every now and then:Aviation is a
F--ked industry,Dont believe me, then spend 35 years in it! and yes I love to fly
, cant get enough, I just wish I had become a heroin addict, would have been cheaper:The biggest bug bear for me, is the industry has no integrity, the 45's & under with university degrees, and their way of dealing with people both older, & younger than themselves have a different set of morals, and a different brand of integrity:
H/Snort:
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I was in the same position as you many years ago. My parents encouraged me to pursue a university degree after I completed HSC, which I did. Whilst at uni, I worked the graveyard shift at a servo and used that income to pay for my PPL. After uni, worked as a school teacher (one of the most dangerous jobs I've had) and paid for my CPL and MECIR and instructor rating. I was teaching for a good 10 years before I got my first job as a pilot. Mates of mine who I finished school with, took flying lessons as soon as they finished their HSC. One is now a 737 check and training captain at QF Domestic, another a management captain at JQ.
I now fly an RPT turboprop for an airline in South East Asia and my parents fully support my decision to change careers some ten years ago. I guess parents just want to ensure that their children have a good stable future, and the traditional pathway to an airline career via GA has never been that. But with a degree and work experience in another industry, you can always go back to your other qualification if things don't work out on your way to an airline career. I've personally had to go back to relief teaching more than once, in between flying jobs due to things not working out in GA for me and for this, I thank my parents for encouraging me to pursue a degree earlier on in life.
I now fly an RPT turboprop for an airline in South East Asia and my parents fully support my decision to change careers some ten years ago. I guess parents just want to ensure that their children have a good stable future, and the traditional pathway to an airline career via GA has never been that. But with a degree and work experience in another industry, you can always go back to your other qualification if things don't work out on your way to an airline career. I've personally had to go back to relief teaching more than once, in between flying jobs due to things not working out in GA for me and for this, I thank my parents for encouraging me to pursue a degree earlier on in life.
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Concur, reference joining the services. Don't forget that the Navy and Army have aeronautical engineers as well. You can enter as a pilot or as an engineer and change branch later but if you want to fly you are better holding out for pilot even if recruiting offer an engineer position. It can be very hard to change if you are in a branch that is short of people at the time.
If you go the civilian path you will need money behind you. Starting flying in a few years will not stop you having a good career and some financial freedom gives you more options for employment once you start. Engineers can make some good coin so getting some experience now will give you some cash and improves your employability as a pilot down track.
We've all been in you she's at some point, impatient to get into our preferred job. But if you can overcome the urge and play the long age it is more likely to work out better or you.
If you go the civilian path you will need money behind you. Starting flying in a few years will not stop you having a good career and some financial freedom gives you more options for employment once you start. Engineers can make some good coin so getting some experience now will give you some cash and improves your employability as a pilot down track.
We've all been in you she's at some point, impatient to get into our preferred job. But if you can overcome the urge and play the long age it is more likely to work out better or you.
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Your folks v you
Against my parents wishes, I left a secure career to become an airline pilot. Guess what...the best move of my life. Am now retired, seventy, and halfway through a B.A. majoring in journalism. Never too late to do as your heart desires! Good luck cobber.
