Most unusual method of instilling knowledge
Reminds me of my first few flights learning to fly in a Tiger Moth at Kingsford Smith Flying School, Bankstown, in 1951. No electric intercom - just a Gosport Tube with my first instructors shouting as hard as they could over the noise of the engine. First trip waste of time as instructor was former Polish Spitfire pilot Stan Birtus whose gutteral accent was impossible to understand. Next week same bloke. Waste of time and my precious money. Third week another European heavily accented "instructor"- Jan Kingma; I think Dutch wartime background. Again I understood very little of what he was shouting down the Gosport Tube. More dough down the drain.
Then an Australian instructor with big black moustache for 4th week. Tas Dalton was his name. He said hardly a word and seemed bored stiff. That was 45 minutes wasted and I was beginning to despair as my savings was rapidly depleting.
Then on 5 May 1951 in Tiger Moth VH-AUO, I struck pure gold in the form of Bill Burns - former RAAF pilot and then a Qantas flight safety manager who instructed for the love of it in his spare time. The perfect instructor. Kindly, sympathetic and his instruction set me on my way to a successful flying career. Thanks Bill - I will always owe you. He sent me solo after a couple of trips and I never looked back. Soon joined the RAAF where I had several first class instructors and a couple of real screamers. Same as the airlines... Then ran into some lousy check captains in the airlines who should never have held their positions. Of course, seniority ruled as it does now; hence some of the undesirables that still exist to this day in the world of airline checking and training..
There is an old saying as true today as it was 60 years ago. "People may not remember what you did or what you said. But they will always remember how you made them feel"
Then an Australian instructor with big black moustache for 4th week. Tas Dalton was his name. He said hardly a word and seemed bored stiff. That was 45 minutes wasted and I was beginning to despair as my savings was rapidly depleting.
Then on 5 May 1951 in Tiger Moth VH-AUO, I struck pure gold in the form of Bill Burns - former RAAF pilot and then a Qantas flight safety manager who instructed for the love of it in his spare time. The perfect instructor. Kindly, sympathetic and his instruction set me on my way to a successful flying career. Thanks Bill - I will always owe you. He sent me solo after a couple of trips and I never looked back. Soon joined the RAAF where I had several first class instructors and a couple of real screamers. Same as the airlines... Then ran into some lousy check captains in the airlines who should never have held their positions. Of course, seniority ruled as it does now; hence some of the undesirables that still exist to this day in the world of airline checking and training..
There is an old saying as true today as it was 60 years ago. "People may not remember what you did or what you said. But they will always remember how you made them feel"
Last edited by Centaurus; 31st Dec 2012 at 12:49.
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Geez Anthill get over yourself mate... you seem to be stuck in some instructional backwater.
Wrong again. Try reading before you get all uppity. Nobody is shouting. Nobody is "smacking". It's a technique from a large British airline, known for their high training standards. All I was doing was gradually increasing the level of aural input to find his cognitive threshold. If that doesn't work, a simple tap on the hand does. Sure, you could stop the sim, but if you do that you lose the immediate value of the training exercise.
Actually, the way you launched into a full-on personal attack when challenged tells me all I need to know about your own "competencies".
And a harassment suit? Grow up!
You failed to recognise cognitive overload, that's what happend. So you yelled at the student and increased the stress levels hoping to inprove performance? Then you smacked him?
Actually, the way you launched into a full-on personal attack when challenged tells me all I need to know about your own "competencies".
And a harassment suit? Grow up!
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I suggest that you read your company's Workplace Harrassment policies mate because you are clueless. Continue at your own risk.
My voice got progressively louder and more commanding, but no response. In the end I had to slap his wrist to get his attention,
You said it all yourself.
There's no point in further trying to defend your actions and attitudes, they don't belong in contemporary operations.
My voice got progressively louder and more commanding, but no response. In the end I had to slap his wrist to get his attention,
There's no point in further trying to defend your actions and attitudes, they don't belong in contemporary operations.
I've come to think of "contemporary" as meaning "we've found newer and better ways to achieve poorer outcomes with greater cost and effort".
But that's just me.
But that's just me.
I will start with a disclaimer: I do not condone any form of physical violence either in the cockpit or elsewhere - unless it is in self defence. That said, if someone deliberately whacked me in the head with a newspaper in the cockpit I would immediately whack them back, but harder - unless they were too big to take on, or as was Antill's experience, a woman. Cowardice is sometimes the better part of valour and that is what lawyers are for. Women are not exempt from that avenue. If an altercation happens in the cockpit, the only smart thing to do after deciding whether to hit back or go for the lawyers would be to immediately walk off the job; ground the aircraft where it is. Doing anything else is a safety issue and diminishes any redress you may have.
However, in some cultures it seems that the only way an instructor or interrogator can gain any control or information is by resorting to physical intimidation. In such cultures they would laugh at our touchy-feely ways.
A funny true story. A Canadian Twin Otter pilot who was infamous for his short fuse had an ambition to fly the heavy iron. He finally cracked a go with a B 747 cargo operator. During simulator his ex RCAF instructor pilot was shouting and screaming at this pilot's lack of progress. Eventually he shouted once too loud, screamed once too often. Said pilot quietly got out of the seat and said something to the effect of " you can't talk to me like that" then decked the instructor. End of airline career, but rather satisfying at the time, I imagine.
However, in some cultures it seems that the only way an instructor or interrogator can gain any control or information is by resorting to physical intimidation. In such cultures they would laugh at our touchy-feely ways.
A funny true story. A Canadian Twin Otter pilot who was infamous for his short fuse had an ambition to fly the heavy iron. He finally cracked a go with a B 747 cargo operator. During simulator his ex RCAF instructor pilot was shouting and screaming at this pilot's lack of progress. Eventually he shouted once too loud, screamed once too often. Said pilot quietly got out of the seat and said something to the effect of " you can't talk to me like that" then decked the instructor. End of airline career, but rather satisfying at the time, I imagine.
Have to agree with Antill here - yelling or hitting a student is totally out of order and unnecessary.
As for the "joke" about hitting dogs and women on page one - grow up (whoever you are).
As for the "joke" about hitting dogs and women on page one - grow up (whoever you are).
Last edited by kellykelpie; 1st Jan 2013 at 11:41.
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I went through RAAF pilots course in the mid 80s. Looking back on it now I reckon about 1/3 of the flying instructional staff considered instructional flying a punishment posting and took it out on their students. Plenty of yelling, screaming, sarcasm etc going on. Didn’t hear of any biffo, although a particular instructor who was just leaving 1FTS as we arrived had the reputation of using “contact counselling” in the aircraft. Went on to become a chief of the Air Force as I recall.
Nowadays I reckon the RAAF does a pretty good job of selecting people for instructors course. Potential “screamers” don’t seem to last too long in the instructional field.
I have had cause to yell at students a couple of times in the last 17 years of instructing, but only coz I thought they were trying to kill me. I reckon if one ever got that frustrated with a student that physical violence is being contemplated, knock it off and go home. You’re an aircraft captain first and foremost, and an instructor second.
Good one! Of course these days you would have got done for being a mysogynistic co-pilot for grabbing her magazine off her in such chauvanistic manner!
Nowadays I reckon the RAAF does a pretty good job of selecting people for instructors course. Potential “screamers” don’t seem to last too long in the instructional field.
I have had cause to yell at students a couple of times in the last 17 years of instructing, but only coz I thought they were trying to kill me. I reckon if one ever got that frustrated with a student that physical violence is being contemplated, knock it off and go home. You’re an aircraft captain first and foremost, and an instructor second.
The captain came to the aircraft and whacked me in the back of the head with a rolled up magazine saying "come on slacker, stop staring out the window". I told the captain that hitting me with a rolled up magazine was offensive and that she was not to do it again. The captain then said "I am the captain and I'll hit you as often as I like" whilst proceeding to hit me repeatedly with said rolled up magazine. I then unfastened my harness, slid me seat back reached over and grabbed her magazine and threw it about half-way down the cabin of the aeroplane.
She never disrespected me (to my face) again.
She never disrespected me (to my face) again.
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Anthill
I have read my company's workplace harassment policy and it has nothing to say on the subject we are discussing. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I don't live or work in Australia (thank god). The key to any workplace harassment policy is the appropriate-ness and degree of the behaviour in question. Frankly, if you want to work in this industry you need to grow a pair rather than cowering in the PC corner in fear of what somebody might do if you happen to raise your voice or brush against them in a confined space.
Please note, all those that love to jump to conclusions, that nobody is condoning physical violence or intimidation. What I am talking about is not the same thing. Touching someone, per se, is not an act of violence. It is the intent that matters (in civilised countries, at any rate).
The way you have responded to me would be considered, in your workplace, harassment - however I note that you are more than happy to jump in with your personal assault, which indicates your true level of professionalism.
If you can't even understand that raising the level, timbre and inflection of one's voice does not equate to shouting, or that some forms physical contact are not only permissible, but completely appropriate in some circumstances in the flight deck, then you are sadly out of touch with modern techniques.
Or maybe Australia is ten years behind the times when it comes to this stuff... as is often the case in aviation over there.
I have read my company's workplace harassment policy and it has nothing to say on the subject we are discussing. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I don't live or work in Australia (thank god). The key to any workplace harassment policy is the appropriate-ness and degree of the behaviour in question. Frankly, if you want to work in this industry you need to grow a pair rather than cowering in the PC corner in fear of what somebody might do if you happen to raise your voice or brush against them in a confined space.
Please note, all those that love to jump to conclusions, that nobody is condoning physical violence or intimidation. What I am talking about is not the same thing. Touching someone, per se, is not an act of violence. It is the intent that matters (in civilised countries, at any rate).
The way you have responded to me would be considered, in your workplace, harassment - however I note that you are more than happy to jump in with your personal assault, which indicates your true level of professionalism.
If you can't even understand that raising the level, timbre and inflection of one's voice does not equate to shouting, or that some forms physical contact are not only permissible, but completely appropriate in some circumstances in the flight deck, then you are sadly out of touch with modern techniques.
Or maybe Australia is ten years behind the times when it comes to this stuff... as is often the case in aviation over there.
remoak:
Furthermore it is you who are out of touch.
1. If you so much as an instructor lay a finger on a recruit/trainee in the ADF without their permission you are asking to be charged and that has been the case since at least as early as 1968. The let out for that is a verbal statement to the effect that you are doing so for instructional purposes as in: "I will now adjust your webbing for you to demonstrate the correct fitting, etc. etc."
Perhaps the RAAF is allowed an exemption from this regulation?
2. Screaming and yelling and prodding is not an effective form of communication or getting peoples attention at all. I've been racing yachts for some Fifty years and I've seen all sorts of yellers and screamers and prodders in some extremely dangerous and hair raising situations as they attempt to get others to do their bidding. It rarely works. Quite often a student/inexperienced person will simply freeze under the tirade and make the situation worse, especially if they are trying to coordinate their actions with others or problem solve or learn an unfamiliar routine.
The best I've sailed with are almost silent. When they do open their mouths, they are worth listening to as they drop pearls of wisdom for the rest of us. The greats, like the late Jock Sturrock, could not only get his message across cogently and simply but leave you splitting your sides laughing as well.
To put that another way, raising your voice, let alone prodding or smacking, is a sign of immaturity and/or stupidity in an instructor.
3. If I want to raise a students stress level, which I agree is sometimes necessary and relevent, there are infinitely subtler ways of doing it which I won't bother to go into here, except to say that it can be done in a conversational tone without the student even noticing he is being loaded up. I am sure qualified and experienced aviation instructors are well aware of this.
To put that another way and demonstrate the complete absurdity of your statement the words of Professor Angelou are relevent, as quoted by Centaurus:
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - the only "lesson" a screamer and a prodder teaches is that he/she is a know nothing prick.
TID EDIT: How about we keep the name calling out of it and keep the thread civilised for once?
I have read my company's workplace harassment policy and it has nothing to say on the subject we are discussing. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I don't live or work in Australia (thank god). The key to any workplace harassment policy is the appropriate-ness and degree of the behaviour in question. Frankly, if you want to work in this industry you need to grow a pair rather than cowering in the PC corner in fear of what somebody might do if you happen to raise your voice or brush against them in a confined space.
Please note, all those that love to jump to conclusions, that nobody is condoning physical violence or intimidation. What I am talking about is not the same thing. Touching someone, per se, is not an act of violence. It is the intent that matters (in civilised countries, at any rate).
The way you have responded to me would be considered, in your workplace, harassment - however I note that you are more than happy to jump in with your personal assault, which indicates your true level of professionalism.
If you can't even understand that raising the level, timbre and inflection of one's voice does not equate to shouting, or that some forms physical contact are not only permissible, but completely appropriate in some circumstances in the flight deck, then you are sadly out of touch with modern techniques.
Or maybe Australia is ten years behind the times when it comes to this stuff... as is often the case in aviation over there.
Please note, all those that love to jump to conclusions, that nobody is condoning physical violence or intimidation. What I am talking about is not the same thing. Touching someone, per se, is not an act of violence. It is the intent that matters (in civilised countries, at any rate).
The way you have responded to me would be considered, in your workplace, harassment - however I note that you are more than happy to jump in with your personal assault, which indicates your true level of professionalism.
If you can't even understand that raising the level, timbre and inflection of one's voice does not equate to shouting, or that some forms physical contact are not only permissible, but completely appropriate in some circumstances in the flight deck, then you are sadly out of touch with modern techniques.
Or maybe Australia is ten years behind the times when it comes to this stuff... as is often the case in aviation over there.
1. If you so much as an instructor lay a finger on a recruit/trainee in the ADF without their permission you are asking to be charged and that has been the case since at least as early as 1968. The let out for that is a verbal statement to the effect that you are doing so for instructional purposes as in: "I will now adjust your webbing for you to demonstrate the correct fitting, etc. etc."
Perhaps the RAAF is allowed an exemption from this regulation?
2. Screaming and yelling and prodding is not an effective form of communication or getting peoples attention at all. I've been racing yachts for some Fifty years and I've seen all sorts of yellers and screamers and prodders in some extremely dangerous and hair raising situations as they attempt to get others to do their bidding. It rarely works. Quite often a student/inexperienced person will simply freeze under the tirade and make the situation worse, especially if they are trying to coordinate their actions with others or problem solve or learn an unfamiliar routine.
The best I've sailed with are almost silent. When they do open their mouths, they are worth listening to as they drop pearls of wisdom for the rest of us. The greats, like the late Jock Sturrock, could not only get his message across cogently and simply but leave you splitting your sides laughing as well.
To put that another way, raising your voice, let alone prodding or smacking, is a sign of immaturity and/or stupidity in an instructor.
3. If I want to raise a students stress level, which I agree is sometimes necessary and relevent, there are infinitely subtler ways of doing it which I won't bother to go into here, except to say that it can be done in a conversational tone without the student even noticing he is being loaded up. I am sure qualified and experienced aviation instructors are well aware of this.
To put that another way and demonstrate the complete absurdity of your statement the words of Professor Angelou are relevent, as quoted by Centaurus:
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." - the only "lesson" a screamer and a prodder teaches is that he/she is a know nothing prick.
TID EDIT: How about we keep the name calling out of it and keep the thread civilised for once?
Last edited by Tidbinbilla; 1st Jan 2013 at 20:15.
Invariably the skippers that scream and shout are those who are at a stage beyond their own ability or confidence to handle a situation. Applies equally to aircraft and boats.
Last year I did a BFR to renew my recreation pilot certificate. The instructor kept up a continuous tirade and was forever grabbing the controls. Now, I may be rough, but I am not suicidal. How a raw student would ever learn anything from this character I don't know.
The effectiveness of typical military technique that breaks a recruit down so that he can be built up into a tough but obedient soldier is one for the psychobabble experts to debate. It is when instructors come from a military environment into civilian operations that we sometimes see a carry-over of behaviour not acceptable in their new roles. Hence the guy who found himself laid out on the simulator floor by a student who did break down, but not in a way that the instructor envisaged.
Last year I did a BFR to renew my recreation pilot certificate. The instructor kept up a continuous tirade and was forever grabbing the controls. Now, I may be rough, but I am not suicidal. How a raw student would ever learn anything from this character I don't know.
The effectiveness of typical military technique that breaks a recruit down so that he can be built up into a tough but obedient soldier is one for the psychobabble experts to debate. It is when instructors come from a military environment into civilian operations that we sometimes see a carry-over of behaviour not acceptable in their new roles. Hence the guy who found himself laid out on the simulator floor by a student who did break down, but not in a way that the instructor envisaged.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 2nd Jan 2013 at 02:19.
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Sunfish
Maybe in Australia, but most definitely not in the Armed Forces in, say, the UK, the US, or even NZ. I have relatives in all three and they had a pretty good laugh at your assertion. You don't even understand the point of the training. Once again, Australia leads the way... world leader in PC...
Good, we are in agreement, that's exactly what I said.
Whilst I agree about the "smacking" the use of one's voice in these situation s is an acquired art that you clearly haven't mastered. Read what I actually wrote. Correct use of the voice is the hallmark of a good instructor
Racing yachts etc... watching the leading America's cup boats in action via all the on-board cameras reveals that they are anything but a silent environment. Lots of shouting going on.
Yes... BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!
I never go out to raise a student's stress level... just to get their attention. Statements like that confirm to me that you have no experience at all of airline-level instruction.
The Angelou quote - very touchy-feely I'm sure, but complete nonsense in the training environment. I can remember many things that I have learned over the years, but I have no idea how I was feeling at the time, and mostly can't recall who the instructor was either... but the lesson remains.
As with Anthill, your last statement tells me all I need to know about your level of professionalism and true approach to relationships. Perhaps if you had spent less time pursuing the corporate dream, and more time becoming a professional pilot, you would have a better idea about this stuff.
If you so much as an instructor lay a finger on a recruit/trainee in the ADF without their permission you are asking to be charged
Screaming and yelling and prodding is not an effective form of communication or getting peoples attention at all.
To put that another way, raising your voice, let alone prodding or smacking, is a sign of immaturity and/or stupidity in an instructor.
Racing yachts etc... watching the leading America's cup boats in action via all the on-board cameras reveals that they are anything but a silent environment. Lots of shouting going on.
I've seen all sorts of yellers and screamers
If I want to raise a students stress level, which I agree is sometimes necessary and relevent
The Angelou quote - very touchy-feely I'm sure, but complete nonsense in the training environment. I can remember many things that I have learned over the years, but I have no idea how I was feeling at the time, and mostly can't recall who the instructor was either... but the lesson remains.
As with Anthill, your last statement tells me all I need to know about your level of professionalism and true approach to relationships. Perhaps if you had spent less time pursuing the corporate dream, and more time becoming a professional pilot, you would have a better idea about this stuff.
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Remoak Racing yachts etc... watching the leading America's cup boats in action via all the on-board cameras reveals that they are anything but a silent environment. Lots of shouting going on.
There is a reason for everything, racing big fast yachts to windward creates significant wind noise from apparent wind which means the communication from the Afterguard forward is difficult and shouting is used to overcome the battle with the wind.
There is a reason for everything, racing big fast yachts to windward creates significant wind noise from apparent wind which means the communication from the Afterguard forward is difficult and shouting is used to overcome the battle with the wind.
A certain very senior individual in CASA wasn't known as 'The Screaming Skull' in his previous life because of his effective and easy going approach to training, that's for sure.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 2nd Jan 2013 at 00:18.
Remoak , I don't have "relatives in" the armed forces. I've commanded recruit training platoons myself and if your relatives resort to brutal and aggressive training methods that explains a lot about their lack of battlefield effectiveness.......or perhaps you have been watching too many videos.
The "tough guy" approach has been passé for at least Fifty years. If we want to raise stress levels, teach lessons, etc. , There are far more effective and subtle methods.
I will not work with screamers and prodders and if by chance I ever encounter one in aviation, I will either avoid them or arrange their dismissal if possible. There is NO NEED for such behaviour.
To restate that: screaming and prodding is an admission of total failure as an instructor.
The "tough guy" approach has been passé for at least Fifty years. If we want to raise stress levels, teach lessons, etc. , There are far more effective and subtle methods.
I will not work with screamers and prodders and if by chance I ever encounter one in aviation, I will either avoid them or arrange their dismissal if possible. There is NO NEED for such behaviour.
To restate that: screaming and prodding is an admission of total failure as an instructor.
It is when instructors come from a military environment into civilian operations that we sometimes see a carry-over of behaviour not acceptable in their new roles.
In the RAAF, many years passed before I realised it was often difficult for CFS supervisors to pick the potential screaming skulls when they were undergoing the flying instructors course at the RAAF Central Flying School where instructors were trained. But as far as I was aware in my RAAF service it was never a military policy to jump into a student with harsh words or deliberately rip into slow students. I think people got that idea from the John Wayne he-man type American movies about pilots.
To shout and rave at students is a personality defect in some instructors whether they be former military or civilian. You won't change that type of personality. The worst kind is the friendly social airline captain off duty who turns into a screamer once he dons his four bars and enters the flight deck. They can catch you off guard and believe me I have experienced a few of those in my flying career. Similar in fact to the personality type who is affable when sober but turns into an unpredictable bastard with one or two beers under his belt.
When I first started my flying training at RAAF Point Cook circa 1951, our CO was one of the most charming old-school officer and gentleman type of person you would ever meet. He had been shot down by the Japs while flying his Catalina from Rabaul shortly after Pearl Harbour and spent the remainder of the war as a POW. After being repatriated he was eventually appointed as CO of No 1 FTS Point Cook
Under his command at Point Cook were about 15 instructors including three who were real bastards known for their propensity to scream at students and scrub them. No names - no pack drill. A few years ago I visited this old CO (Wing Commander Paul Mezler) at his Sydney home and naturally talk turned to the 1950's when he was CO of No 1 RAAF Flying Training School at Point Cook.
When I told him how we students were terrified of the three screamers among his team of flying instructors, he was genuinely horrified that this sort of behaviour went on under his command and that he was never aware of it. If only someone had spoken up he would have removed these three instructors. But in his rareified position as CO he was called "Sir" by his staff and it was considered out of the question for students to complain about his instructors. Without that "intelligence", he could not act and so he lived in another world of Officers Mess social life, week-end tennis playing, Dining-In nights and flag waving parades and so on.
He never knew the truth about the three screaming Amigos. Incidently, one became a DCA Examiner for Airmen after leaving the RAAF and the other two joined Trans Australia Airlines as airline pilots.
Last edited by Centaurus; 2nd Jan 2013 at 06:06.
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Dont read it then, its not that hard
At your rather advanced age one would have thought you would have been more enlightened ... further you may have noticed that I was one of the participants earlier.
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no checklists in a 4 engine bomber?
If I may, I'd like to return to an earlier post.
I've been trying to figure out when RAF and Commonwealth air forces began using written checklists - not just memorized "drills." So, when and where was the following anecdote? Do you recall when checklists came into use:
In principle
For real - people actually used them?
thanks!
I've been trying to figure out when RAF and Commonwealth air forces began using written checklists - not just memorized "drills." So, when and where was the following anecdote? Do you recall when checklists came into use:
In principle
For real - people actually used them?
thanks!
A dirty trick story follows.
In another era Centaurus was a Lincoln instructor.
Wot's a bloody Lincoln you might say. Well its a bigger version of the wartime Lancaster four engine bomber. Designed as a single pilot type another crew member could act as copilot by sitting on a tiny fold-down stool attached to the fuselage wall. The seat was below the level of the captain's seat. That's where the instructor sat if there was one. A short instructor could barely see over the instrument panel. Needless to say I was a short QFI. Checklists weren't heard of in those days. It was all in the head and scans were usually left to right apart from the before take off checks which were standard RAAF Hatches, Harness, Hydraulics, trim etc. Mustn't forget the bomb doors lever either. .
In another era Centaurus was a Lincoln instructor.
Wot's a bloody Lincoln you might say. Well its a bigger version of the wartime Lancaster four engine bomber. Designed as a single pilot type another crew member could act as copilot by sitting on a tiny fold-down stool attached to the fuselage wall. The seat was below the level of the captain's seat. That's where the instructor sat if there was one. A short instructor could barely see over the instrument panel. Needless to say I was a short QFI. Checklists weren't heard of in those days. It was all in the head and scans were usually left to right apart from the before take off checks which were standard RAAF Hatches, Harness, Hydraulics, trim etc. Mustn't forget the bomb doors lever either. .
Wasn't it a WWII Boeing, (maybe the 17), that a senior test pilot buried himself on, prompting the wide intoduction of proper checklist usage?