Holding at IAF of RNAV

[Captahab]

The turn direction of the pattern at Mildura would only have made a marginally better conflict with the missed approach....the holding pattern protection is huge and the change is conflict would be minimal

Nonsense, only potential overlap would have been at the navaid/missed approach point.

With the existing published procedure both a/c could/would be converging as they tracked away from the navaid.

You are in the process of confirming my thoughts on why we have poorly designed approaches.

[alphacentauri]

Nonsense, only potential overlap would have been at the navaid/missed approach point.

You sound like you know what you are talking about. How about you draw a holding a pattern protection area for Mildura and prove what you have just said.

You are in the process of confirming my thoughts on why we have poorly designed approaches.

I wouldn't be too quick to criticise something you don't understand.

[Captahab]

You sound like you know what you are talking about. How about you draw a holding a pattern protection area for Mildura and prove what you have just said.

Have a look at Rocky VOR Rwy 33, that is what I mean. The missed approach avoids the holding pattern but you are saying that it doesn't work ?

If the Mildura holding pattern was flipped over then it too would be clear of the missed approach and would look similiar to the Rocky VOR Rwy 33 situation.

Look, I agree that there are many things about the design that I know nothing about but on an almost daily basis I encounter aspects of design that could be improved and are often not realised until you are in the situation.

Joe bloggs in his unpressurised 402 etc doesn't have the ability to descend on the approach at 1000' per minute and may not have been exposed yet to the implications of arriving in the hold at the minimum altitude.

I am not planning on getting into a who is intelligent or stupid argument as a tiger poster has alluded to above, I am trying to highlight the fact that a small change in the design stage can make a big difference to the hands on application world. Its an area that the person with the rules and the CAD needs to consider, that's all I am saying.

Compare the location of the hold vs the MA on Mildura and Rocky and you will see what I mean - maybe its just me who thinks it could be better

[Zoomy]

Just my two cents.

If you need to hold on the approach and are inside and above the MSA then why wouldn't you fly over to the published hold. That way you fly straight down the approach without any more turns.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Please don't try to tell me that I can't use common sense and fly a left hold to avoid an a/c ahead on the approach if they go around.

Umm, dude, you can't use common sense and fly a left hold if the plate depicts a right hold.

ENR 1.5
3.1.3 Right turns holding patterns are standard holding patterns and must be flown unless the AIP chart depicts, or ATC directs, otherwise.

Broascasts at Non-Towered Aerodromes;
Instrument approach when, a. departing FAF or established on final approach segment inbound
b. terminating the approach, commencing the missed approach

Comms will allow the parties to organise separation if required.
There is no minimum distance outbound in the hold before you turn back in if you think there will be a conflict with an a/c in the missed approach in your scenario..

[Captahab]

Umm, dude, you can't use common sense and fly a left hold if the plate depicts a right hold.

Ease up on the dude stuff, this is the Aust part of DG&P, not Brokeback Mountain where you are

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Not the first and won't be the last person I say that to.

In the film Easy Rider, Billy (Dennis Hopper) speculates that George (Jack Nicholson) "must be some important dude". When George asks what the word "dude" means, Wyatt (Peter Fonda) tells him "dude means, uh, nice guy, dude means regular sort of person".

[alphacentauri]

Captahab, I do see what you are talking about. On the face of it I cannot dispute your logic. But it appears to me that you are working on deconflicting nominal tracks, whilst I have to deconflict protection areas. We really aren't comparing the same thing. Which is why I can't dispute what you say. But If I were to show you the design areas for these approaches you may be surprised how different they are from what you think they are. (and you wouldn't be the first pilot to be surprised at the approach protection areas)

[alphacentauri]

Don't talk crap.

Of the 6 designers currently certified by CASA. 4 of us hold or held ME-CIR. The other 2 were rated ATC looking for a change in career.

We currently have 3 trainees all of which have the minimum experience to design procedures as set by CASA.

We are currently recruiting so I can assume we will get your application since you reckon you can do our job better than us.


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[Captahab]

Captahab, I do see what you are talking about. On the face of it I cannot dispute your logic. But it appears to me that you are working on deconflicting nominal tracks, whilst I have to deconflict protection areas. We really aren't comparing the same thing. Which is why I can't dispute what you say. But If I were to show you the design areas for these approaches you may be surprised how different they are from what you think they are. (and you wouldn't be the first pilot to be surprised at the approach protection areas)

Another area of consideration that you touched on with your 2.5% example is that you were probably measuring that from the navaid. In most cases for a Rwy approach the missed approach (vertical aspect) is commenced once you reach the MDA which can be a long way before the navaid, the navaid is still used but only for lateral tracking to and point of direction for change of tracking if published.

[Oktas8]

In most cases for a Rwy approach the missed approach (vertical aspect) is commenced once you reach the MDA

The 2.5% (or other if specified) gradient starts at the published missed approach point. No sooner, no later. This usually isn't where the ideal profile intersects MDA - there's almost always a level segment.