NVFR problem

[delta_alpha_november]

Hi guys, here is the story....

I currently hold CPL and instrument rating (with all aids) but want to get NVFR for when i go looking for that exclusive first job. i already meet all the minimum experience requirements for completing the test, including having about 10 hrs PIC at night (1/2 IFR and 1/2 VFR).

Problem is when i contact flight schools about doing the test their response is either a straight no because they say they dont do NVFR training this time of year due to daylight savings or that they would require me to complete as a minimum 2 navs plus a number of night circuits and training area flights.... just because i havent done any previous training with them and the instructor wouldn't feel comfortable recomending me for test without seeing me fly a number of times over a number of nights, which in my view is a complete waste of money paying for more training flights if you already meet the standard.

I understand that i mightnt be up to standard and hence would require more flights but i dont want to waste money on flights when i dont need to.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

[LexAir]

PM me for some advice on who to see.

Good luck

[Tinstaafl]

If I'm recommending someone for a test then I want to make damn sure I'm happy with their standard, both theory & flight. Don't forget that a school is assessed by CASA, in part, on it's rate of of 1st time passes. Why would they want to recommend a complete stranger without sufficient time to see how good you are?

As for your night experience, you need to makes sure that you meet the requirements. I don't recall that IFR at night counts. Do you have the required solo circuit time? Requirements may have changed in the years since I left Oz but you really need to go through the min. experience requirements & make sure you meet each & every one.

Just curious, but why didn't you do a NVFR as part of the time building towards your CPL?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Because the school gets more money from you the second time around that way!

Agree with Tin's sentiments about recommendations. Why don't you go back through the school that did your CIR (unless they really burned you 1st time round)?

ps, "Solo" cct time does not form part of the experience requirements.

at least 2 hours of flight time in an aircraft that is flying in a traffic pattern

However, nights ccts are the only activity for which a rating is required that you can be authorised to conduct without actually holding that rating.

You could always just keep your CIR current. The requirements for night currency are the same, regardless of whether you have a NVFR or CIR.

[scavenger]

Don't forget that a school is assessed by CASA, in part, on it's rate of of 1st time passes.

The condition on AOCs relating to first time passes only refers to CPL, IFR and FI tests. If the rate of NVFR passes is so low to attract CASA's attention, it is very likely they have already got the school for the rate of CPL, IFR and FI passes anyway.

Why would they want to recommend a complete stranger without sufficient time to see how good you are?

The OP says he is willing to undertake whatever flights are necessary to achieve the standard. The schools seem to be saying he won't be at the standard unless he does every flight in the syllabus.

Just curious, but why didn't you do a NVFR as part of the time building towards your CPL?

A lot of larger schools don't include NVFR in the syllabus because of the weather restrictions therein. The 5 hours night PIC required for IFR is gained without a rating in the circuit under instructor supervision. Good schools will include a night VFR navex that meets the 3 hour requirement for NVFR so people can do exactly what the OP describes.

I don't recall that IFR at night counts.

It can, except for the two hours visual instruction and the traffic pattern time, although CAO 40.2.2 Appendix I does not specifically say VFR, just visual.

[swh]

If one has a MECIR and then attempts the NVFR, one automatically is eligible for a unrestricted NVFR (i.e. not SE) even if the test is done in a SE aircraft.

[MikeTangoEcho]

Fair enough they don't do it during daylight savings, when's last light over there? Duty times don't go forward an hour

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

If one has a MECIR and then attempts the NVFR, one automatically is eligible for a unrestricted NVFR (i.e. not SE) even if the test is done in a SE aircraft

Where is that written? Last time I looked, I wasn't able to find anything like that.

From the ATOM

Upgrade to multi-engine Night VFR
Where an applicant holds a night VFR rating limited to single engine aircraft and is upgrading to a night VFR rating with no limitation, the applicant must make application using the NVFR flight test form. ATOs are to conduct the flight test ensuring that all items on the flight test report are satisfied

No mention in the ATOM about "automatic" upgrades. One might attempt to construe this as adding the NVFR(ME) during a CIR(ME) test, however, apart from CIR and PIFR, you will most likely find you cannot conduct two flight tests simultaneously. The NVFR test is also conducted under separate criteria

The night portion of the test shall be conducted in VMC, and shall include, as a minimum, night circuits and a cross-country flight with a take-off and landing at an aerodrome remote from extensive ground lighting.

to the CIR test.

Fair enough they don't do it during daylight savings, when's last light over there? Duty times don't go forward an hour

They also don't extend by an hour. Most schools will roster instructors with night duties to start at say ten, rather than eight, so what's the problem there?

[swh]

Originally Posted by MakeItHappenCaptain

Where is that written? Last time I looked, I wasn't able to find anything like that

The CASA Flight Crew Licensing Procedures Manual page 18-4, para 18.5.3 "Removal of Single Engine Aeroplane Restriction (Multi-engine Upgrade)".

"To remove a single-engine aeroplane limitation from a NVFR Rating (CAAP 5.13-2(0)(0)), a flight test must be conducted in a multi-engine aeroplane. However, where a person also holds a current aeroplane command or co-pilot instrument rating that was issued or renewed on the basis of a flight test conducted in a multi-engine aeroplane or simulator, a flight test is not required for the removal of the limitation."

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

swh,
Thanks for that.

[glenb]

nvfr

Just to clarify you will need to contact CASA as they will need to lift the restriction. A fairly easy process but this must be done. It is not automatically lifted.