Using own plane for PPL training
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Using own plane for PPL training
Hope someone can shed some light on the CASA regs for using your own plane for PPL training. It's for my 18yo son.
I've used the plane in the past for aeros, NVFR, BFR and CPL etc training without problems.
I'm informed that all aircraft used for "basic training" must be on the flying schools AOC, making it impractical to use your own plane. I've searched the regs, but cannot find a reference to this.
Does anyone know which CASA regs this falls under?
Is "basic training" PPL or only GFPT?
I've used the plane in the past for aeros, NVFR, BFR and CPL etc training without problems.
I'm informed that all aircraft used for "basic training" must be on the flying schools AOC, making it impractical to use your own plane. I've searched the regs, but cannot find a reference to this.
Does anyone know which CASA regs this falls under?
Is "basic training" PPL or only GFPT?
I have a distinct feeling we have seen this topic before.
I presume the aircraft in question in a single, piston-engined aircraft below 5700kg. I have never seen a flying school AOC without this class of aircraft endorsed upon it.
In the good old days we would just get in and go, but in these days where paperwork is a substitute for intelligence the flying school would need to create part of their ops manual specifically describing how to fly that aircraft, fuel flows to be used, std power settings, etc etc etc.
Bloke I know supplied his own C182 for his son's PPL training. Again, assuming the aircraft is nothing too exotic, the only reason a school can't do the same for you is time/effort/profit margin related.
good luck
I presume the aircraft in question in a single, piston-engined aircraft below 5700kg. I have never seen a flying school AOC without this class of aircraft endorsed upon it.
In the good old days we would just get in and go, but in these days where paperwork is a substitute for intelligence the flying school would need to create part of their ops manual specifically describing how to fly that aircraft, fuel flows to be used, std power settings, etc etc etc.
Bloke I know supplied his own C182 for his son's PPL training. Again, assuming the aircraft is nothing too exotic, the only reason a school can't do the same for you is time/effort/profit margin related.
good luck
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I'd have hoped the POH would have covered the performance basics.
The plane in question is pretty conventional with a Lycoming 320-D1A engine.
I've been hitting Google and can't find the CASA source regs.
The plane in question is pretty conventional with a Lycoming 320-D1A engine.
I've been hitting Google and can't find the CASA source regs.
Is it a certified design or a homebuilt?
"pretty much conventional" sounds pretty broad!
"pretty much conventional" sounds pretty broad!
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The plane is VH registered in the Normal, Aerobatic, Airwork and Night categories. Plane is hangared at YMMB close to the flying school.
Can't see what the fuss is, but if I can dig thru the relevant CAR it should clarify the matter.
Can't see what the fuss is, but if I can dig thru the relevant CAR it should clarify the matter.
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Yes, that's my son at Tooraddin when he was about 45cm shorter.
He's a bit taller now (October 2012), here he is in a C172 at YMMB:
He's a bit taller now (October 2012), here he is in a C172 at YMMB:
Last edited by peterc005; 9th Oct 2012 at 04:04.
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Hope someone can shed some light on the CASA regs for using your own plane for PPL training. It's for my 18yo son.
Ring CASA, - they are your friends, and are here to help you. Rules, (or "instruments") change from day to day.
I note your young bloke is right handed. That could be a problem.
peter005,
There is no aviation regulatory problem, you just have to negotiate a deal with your (whoever the training AOC holder is) proposed organisation.
What "having an aircraft on the AOC"means these days varies with the FOI/Team who/which is assigned to the org. If you can't sort it out with the org., and they blame CASA, talk to the FOI/Team Leader.
The real reason many flying schools don't like you using your own is they don't make as much money, although the excuses will vary, "insurance prohibits it" is a favorite one.
Having mentioned insurance, make certain you have that squared away in all respects, not just that training can be conducted in the aircraft. In particular, make certain all aspects of Workers Comp. for the instructor are covered.
Tootle pip!!
There is no aviation regulatory problem, you just have to negotiate a deal with your (whoever the training AOC holder is) proposed organisation.
What "having an aircraft on the AOC"means these days varies with the FOI/Team who/which is assigned to the org. If you can't sort it out with the org., and they blame CASA, talk to the FOI/Team Leader.
The real reason many flying schools don't like you using your own is they don't make as much money, although the excuses will vary, "insurance prohibits it" is a favorite one.
Having mentioned insurance, make certain you have that squared away in all respects, not just that training can be conducted in the aircraft. In particular, make certain all aspects of Workers Comp. for the instructor are covered.
Tootle pip!!
Don't forget that and be ready for it!
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@LeadSled - thanks for the tip.
The flying school said using our plane would be no problem when we were going to sign up, but then turned around and said no.
It's not just the cost, our plane, in my opinion, has lower hours and better maintenance than their fleet. My son is very familiar with our plane and knows the systems well. The plane is a much loved member of the family.
He's already on the insurance for training and there is heaps of broad coverage.
I'll have another quiet word to the CFI to see if they'll budge. He's about to do his GFPT and it would be a good plane for his nav exercises.
I'd appreciate to know if anyone knows of any relevant CARs, I can't find anything.
The flying school said using our plane would be no problem when we were going to sign up, but then turned around and said no.
It's not just the cost, our plane, in my opinion, has lower hours and better maintenance than their fleet. My son is very familiar with our plane and knows the systems well. The plane is a much loved member of the family.
He's already on the insurance for training and there is heaps of broad coverage.
I'll have another quiet word to the CFI to see if they'll budge. He's about to do his GFPT and it would be a good plane for his nav exercises.
I'd appreciate to know if anyone knows of any relevant CARs, I can't find anything.
Peter, it's not covered in the CARs.
Leadsled has hit the nail on the head: it is between you and the CFI (or perhaps the school's owner, if not the CFI).
A school in my area charges a premium of $20 per hour for using your own aircraft, I presume to recoup the profit they would otherwise have made on their own aircraft.
Presuming the school has SPEA<5700kg on its AOC, it can use an Airtourer if it wants to.
Good luck. I'm not sure the CFI would be best pleased to see the matter discussed here...
Leadsled has hit the nail on the head: it is between you and the CFI (or perhaps the school's owner, if not the CFI).
A school in my area charges a premium of $20 per hour for using your own aircraft, I presume to recoup the profit they would otherwise have made on their own aircraft.
Presuming the school has SPEA<5700kg on its AOC, it can use an Airtourer if it wants to.
Good luck. I'm not sure the CFI would be best pleased to see the matter discussed here...
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Peter.. we had many pilots do the training in their own aircraft. Putting an unusual type on the AOC was also no big deal (although these days it can take a while depending on the relationship the school has with CASA)... mind you the Victa should already be included because of their below 5,700 group.
Mind you we charged the instructor rate for dual & solo, even so it still worked out slightly cheaper for the student plus they were getting experience in the aircraft they would be flying.
If you are in Melbourne try calling Guy Pearson at YMEN he seems to be quite reasonable.
Mind you we charged the instructor rate for dual & solo, even so it still worked out slightly cheaper for the student plus they were getting experience in the aircraft they would be flying.
If you are in Melbourne try calling Guy Pearson at YMEN he seems to be quite reasonable.
Last edited by hiwaytohell; 9th Oct 2012 at 10:18.
Not just an insurance issue.
The Maintanance Controller for the AoC must also take responsibility for the maintanance, (ensure all AD's, etc all complied with), but shouldn't be an issue with a reputable engineer.
Also seen cases where the school was held responsible at an ops inspection as to why "their" aircraft (read as CASA assuming all the hours conducted by that aircraft were undertaked by the school, including the twice weekly airspace breaches by the aircraft owner) had so many ATC reports attached.
The Maintanance Controller for the AoC must also take responsibility for the maintanance, (ensure all AD's, etc all complied with), but shouldn't be an issue with a reputable engineer.
Also seen cases where the school was held responsible at an ops inspection as to why "their" aircraft (read as CASA assuming all the hours conducted by that aircraft were undertaked by the school, including the twice weekly airspace breaches by the aircraft owner) had so many ATC reports attached.
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You Missed Something
The most important things in this day is the Insurance, Maint release is at least Aerial Work category, (might have to be CHTR), not private, and possibly a cross hire agreement between you as owner and the Aero Club as hirer. This will cover off most of the maintenace items such as Ad's etc mentioned in one of the previous posts.
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Peter
I imported a 2006 C172S from the States for my son to do his PPL late last year. The insurance as mentioned above is a prudent move but as far as the regs are concerned the only issue is to ensure the MR is issued for Aerial work. Nearly all the flying schools at AF were happy to teach him to fly in our aircraft and he certaibnly isn't the first.
So long as your son is happy with the instructor and your happy with the level of instruction he is receiving there should be no problems. I am sure there are other flying schools around where you are who would be enthused to teach your son to fly in your aircraft.
I imported a 2006 C172S from the States for my son to do his PPL late last year. The insurance as mentioned above is a prudent move but as far as the regs are concerned the only issue is to ensure the MR is issued for Aerial work. Nearly all the flying schools at AF were happy to teach him to fly in our aircraft and he certaibnly isn't the first.
So long as your son is happy with the instructor and your happy with the level of instruction he is receiving there should be no problems. I am sure there are other flying schools around where you are who would be enthused to teach your son to fly in your aircraft.
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Happy to pay the $20 an hour premium, which is stated on the rate sheet.
The plane is in Airwork, the plane has a very good maintenance history and the insurance is sorted. I''ve done plenty of training in the plane over the years.
The question I'm trying to answer is "does a plane need to be on a school's AOC to use it for basic training (PPL)?".
I'm still getting conflicting answers and thought if I could find a reference in CAR or the other CASA documents this would be clarified.
The plane is in Airwork, the plane has a very good maintenance history and the insurance is sorted. I''ve done plenty of training in the plane over the years.
The question I'm trying to answer is "does a plane need to be on a school's AOC to use it for basic training (PPL)?".
I'm still getting conflicting answers and thought if I could find a reference in CAR or the other CASA documents this would be clarified.