Using own plane for PPL training
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@C82R - thanks for the post. Was your plane put on the schools AOC?
The instructor he has had so far is excellent and I've been impressed by her. It's not really practical to change schools, I'd prefer just to quietly resolve the issue.
The instructor he has had so far is excellent and I've been impressed by her. It's not really practical to change schools, I'd prefer just to quietly resolve the issue.
Yes, the aircraft needs to be nominated on the Flying School's AOC.
BUT
I bet you their AOC says "Single Piston Engined Aircraft below 5,700kg MTOW".
It will not nominate the C152, C172, PA28 or any other aircraft they currently use. It will nominate the class of aircraft, not the type. Your Airtourer will fall into this class too.
You can probably refer to the CAAP on Operations Manuals (CAAP 215-1(1) I think) and the Air Operators Certification Manual to find CASA's expectation of an operator's obligations or acceptable methods of compliance.
Interestingly, you seem to have previous experience on this matter with both you and I offering advice on this thread.
What's changed
BUT
I bet you their AOC says "Single Piston Engined Aircraft below 5,700kg MTOW".
It will not nominate the C152, C172, PA28 or any other aircraft they currently use. It will nominate the class of aircraft, not the type. Your Airtourer will fall into this class too.
You can probably refer to the CAAP on Operations Manuals (CAAP 215-1(1) I think) and the Air Operators Certification Manual to find CASA's expectation of an operator's obligations or acceptable methods of compliance.
Interestingly, you seem to have previous experience on this matter with both you and I offering advice on this thread.
What's changed
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 9th Oct 2012 at 11:58.
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Peter your reference is CAO 82.1 (Conditions on Air Operators’ Certificates authorising charter operations and aerial work operations)
As the others have said, the aircraft will be on the AOC.
It will really come down to the schools operations manual and willingness to amend it to include an airtourer. There is a fair chance it won't be in the OM already. I can't say I've seen one of those at a school before.
6 Obligations in relation to operating different aircraft models
6.1 This subsection applies to each operator who holds a certificate authorising charter, or aerial work, operations in an aircraft identified in the certificate by:
(a) manufacturer and type only; or
(b) aircraft class only.
6.2 The operator must ensure that:
(a) the operations manual contains current and appropriate operating information, procedures and instructions (the specific instructions) for each aircraft type and model operated; and
(b) before a pilot operates an aircraft, the chief pilot is satisfied that the pilot:
(i) is competent to operate the aircraft in accordance with the specific instructions for the aircraft type and model; and
(ii) understands the differences in each model of the aircraft type operated by the operator; and
(c) the operations manual, the maintenance control manual or other airworthiness control document contains appropriate maintenance control instructions for each aircraft type and model operated.
6.1 This subsection applies to each operator who holds a certificate authorising charter, or aerial work, operations in an aircraft identified in the certificate by:
(a) manufacturer and type only; or
(b) aircraft class only.
6.2 The operator must ensure that:
(a) the operations manual contains current and appropriate operating information, procedures and instructions (the specific instructions) for each aircraft type and model operated; and
(b) before a pilot operates an aircraft, the chief pilot is satisfied that the pilot:
(i) is competent to operate the aircraft in accordance with the specific instructions for the aircraft type and model; and
(ii) understands the differences in each model of the aircraft type operated by the operator; and
(c) the operations manual, the maintenance control manual or other airworthiness control document contains appropriate maintenance control instructions for each aircraft type and model operated.
It will really come down to the schools operations manual and willingness to amend it to include an airtourer. There is a fair chance it won't be in the OM already. I can't say I've seen one of those at a school before.
Last edited by NIK320; 9th Oct 2012 at 12:07.
Peter, this is very simple. Your aircraft falls under the definition of CAO 40.1.0,
(which, btw, does not mean either a Victa Airtourer or CT4. They are not listed elsewhere.)
I do not know of a single GA training school which would not have this on their AoC list.
Your answer in this case is an emphatic NO. It will already be on their AoC. The personal choice of the CFI or CP will be the deciding factor.
Further amendment (good ref, Nik): the personal choice of the CP or CFI as to amending the Ops Manual if required will be the deciding factor.
SINGLE ENGINE AEROPLANES NOT EXCEEDING 5 700KG MAXIMUM TAKE-OFF WEIGHT
All single engine aeroplanes not exceeding 5 700 kg maximum take-off weight, except for those listed elsewhere in an Appendix to this Order as requiring a specific type or class endorsement
All single engine aeroplanes not exceeding 5 700 kg maximum take-off weight, except for those listed elsewhere in an Appendix to this Order as requiring a specific type or class endorsement
I do not know of a single GA training school which would not have this on their AoC list.
Your answer in this case is an emphatic NO. It will already be on their AoC. The personal choice of the CFI or CP will be the deciding factor.
Further amendment (good ref, Nik): the personal choice of the CP or CFI as to amending the Ops Manual if required will be the deciding factor.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 9th Oct 2012 at 12:03.
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@Horatio Leafblower - my experience in the past has been that while flying schools are not enthusiastic about using your own plane, it shouldn't be a problem.
That post by me was late last year and then I'd never had a problem using my own plane for training.
It's only now this year that we want to use the plane for my sons PPL that it's become an issue. An unexpected issue.
The references above are what I was looking for and I'll download and read them in detail.
The question I'll ask the flying school is "does the AOC list classes of planes or individual types?".
That post by me was late last year and then I'd never had a problem using my own plane for training.
It's only now this year that we want to use the plane for my sons PPL that it's become an issue. An unexpected issue.
The references above are what I was looking for and I'll download and read them in detail.
The question I'll ask the flying school is "does the AOC list classes of planes or individual types?".
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Some bean counters seem to have a view that they dont like their (not) highly valuable, state of the art, no expense spared, superbly maintained fleet sitting there costing money, and hence profit going out of the window whilst their (not) highly paid instructors, from whom they make no money, (ha!) are out enjoying themselves flying someone else's plane. They will always preference their own fleet. They'll do anything to keep their planes flying, hiring and cross hiring to anyone who breathes, because they think that's how they make money. Then they see the extra cost and responsibility to keep records, monitor the the training, testing, currency, medical etc for a student from whom they make little money. You can perhaps see one reason why this industry is like it is.
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I know a bloke who has just finished his training in his own aircraft at Camden. Didn't mention any problems doing so. Call Curtis Aviation, they may give you the low down.
I would think the best way would be to complete the GFPT in the 172. By the look of the photos he's obviously comfortable with it. (and has been since 97)
While this is happening sort out the AOC CAR issues and then do the navs/nvfr/cpl in the other one.
That way he gets the benefit of both types.
Particularly having a bit of 172 time will then be a good transition to the 182/206/210 later on instead of having all the eggs in the one basket.
Ask his Instructor... She will know what's best.. Sounds like she has done a great job so far..
While this is happening sort out the AOC CAR issues and then do the navs/nvfr/cpl in the other one.
That way he gets the benefit of both types.
Particularly having a bit of 172 time will then be a good transition to the 182/206/210 later on instead of having all the eggs in the one basket.
Ask his Instructor... She will know what's best.. Sounds like she has done a great job so far..
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@buzzz.lightyear - that's the current plan, use the school's basic trainer to finish GFPT (another couple of solo hours), and then hopefully switch across to the Airtourer for the cross-country navs.
Junior is very familiar and comfortable with the Airtourer, in particular the GPS. The only problem I can see is him getting airborne for solo nav exercises and hitting the GPS "GoTo" button rather than using a map and dead reckoning.
Junior is very familiar and comfortable with the Airtourer, in particular the GPS. The only problem I can see is him getting airborne for solo nav exercises and hitting the GPS "GoTo" button rather than using a map and dead reckoning.
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Strikes me that someone is making it harder than it needs to be.
I would take it on board that said person did not want my money and go elsewhere.
We have the reverse situation at YVFT, where one of the students dad is an instructor, but not employed as one. (does work as pilot in the industry however) They do not own an aeroplane.
All the paperwork was happily taken care of, and now the dad is teaching his son to fly, in aircraft hired from YVFT.
All training providers charge an extra for training/checking in ones own aircraft (that also extends out to solo time as well), there is a little bit of extra admininistration involved for the AOC holder, and the charges I have seen around the country for this are not profit making, merely there to recoup some of the costs involved.
It isn't hard, and anyone throwing it up as so doesn't really want your business. Go elsewhere.
I would take it on board that said person did not want my money and go elsewhere.
We have the reverse situation at YVFT, where one of the students dad is an instructor, but not employed as one. (does work as pilot in the industry however) They do not own an aeroplane.
All the paperwork was happily taken care of, and now the dad is teaching his son to fly, in aircraft hired from YVFT.
All training providers charge an extra for training/checking in ones own aircraft (that also extends out to solo time as well), there is a little bit of extra admininistration involved for the AOC holder, and the charges I have seen around the country for this are not profit making, merely there to recoup some of the costs involved.
It isn't hard, and anyone throwing it up as so doesn't really want your business. Go elsewhere.
Junior is very familiar and comfortable with the Airtourer, in particular the GPS. The only problem I can see is him getting airborne for solo nav exercises and hitting the GPS "GoTo" button rather than using a map and dead reckoning.
Peter, a bit of friendly advice. That GPS will be just about the biggest problem you will give to your young fella. Don't get me wrong, GPS (GNSS) is a fantastic invention, but one of the biggest hurdles I see with flight reviews is over-reliance on technology. When that piece of kit falls over, they're lost. Learn time to map to ground properly without cheating.
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@MakeItHappenCaptain - it's a bit of a generational thing. If he had a choice he'd be flying a full glass cockpit G1000 C172 at OAA, or maybe a glass Warrior from MFS, not looking at steam gauges.
Most of the training fleet at Moorabbin was built before he was born and from his perspective are relics. Given a chance he'd choose a Cirrus over a Piper. You should see the look on his face when shown around a Tiger Moth.
Most of the training fleet at Moorabbin was built before he was born and from his perspective are relics. Given a chance he'd choose a Cirrus over a Piper. You should see the look on his face when shown around a Tiger Moth.
Generational thing has nothing to do with it.
All navigation is based on the principle that if you fly at a certain speed in a certain direction for a certain time you will be in a certain place, hence why three of the four required instruments for VFR flight are an airspeed indicator, compass and a clock.
GNSS, as I said, is a fantastic development. The problem comes when people forget their situational awareness and just, as you said, hit the goto button while putting the brain in neutral. As a proper pilot, your lad needs to be able to use his map and relate what he sees outside to what's on the paper, not just follow a magenta line.
Paddy's law says Murphy was an optimist and one day, he'll have a complete electrical failure and that GNSS will be no use whatsoever. The glass cockpit is just progress, but there's no guarantee his first job will be on glass and he will have enormous difficulty with a proper scan when it comes to instrument flying in an analog cockpit if he has no experience there, but that is not my point.
IMO, your GNSS unit, regardless of which aircraft it is in, is one of the biggest impediments to learning navigation properly. Do him a favour and give him a WAC chart instead.
ps. You can always confiscate the data card.
All navigation is based on the principle that if you fly at a certain speed in a certain direction for a certain time you will be in a certain place, hence why three of the four required instruments for VFR flight are an airspeed indicator, compass and a clock.
GNSS, as I said, is a fantastic development. The problem comes when people forget their situational awareness and just, as you said, hit the goto button while putting the brain in neutral. As a proper pilot, your lad needs to be able to use his map and relate what he sees outside to what's on the paper, not just follow a magenta line.
Paddy's law says Murphy was an optimist and one day, he'll have a complete electrical failure and that GNSS will be no use whatsoever. The glass cockpit is just progress, but there's no guarantee his first job will be on glass and he will have enormous difficulty with a proper scan when it comes to instrument flying in an analog cockpit if he has no experience there, but that is not my point.
IMO, your GNSS unit, regardless of which aircraft it is in, is one of the biggest impediments to learning navigation properly. Do him a favour and give him a WAC chart instead.
ps. You can always confiscate the data card.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 10th Oct 2012 at 22:22.
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He's got all the charts, but comes from the smart-phone generation. They expect everything at their finger tips, on-line and automatic.
Showing him NAIPS and the Air Services web site I explained in the past weather and flight plans were done be fax. Don't think he's ever heard of a fax, let alone used one.
Good idea about removing the data card. Maybe then he'll pay attention to heading and time.
Showing him NAIPS and the Air Services web site I explained in the past weather and flight plans were done be fax. Don't think he's ever heard of a fax, let alone used one.
Good idea about removing the data card. Maybe then he'll pay attention to heading and time.
