ADS-B stuff that I have found II

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Last thread locked


Sense And Avoid Flies At UND

From Avweb. Article shows developments in automated traffic avoidance by vector as opposed to vertical maneuver using ADS-B data. Granted, the experiment is directed toward UAVs, however, the concept translates to manned vehicles quite readily, I would think?

Enjoy!

[Sunfish]

I automatically assume that Australia has gone it alone with ADS-B just like we ignored WAAS and built our own non standard DME.

Dynons Skyview system has the facility to display ADS-B targets but my understanding is that that function won't work in Australian systems. I'm not even sure Dynond transponder complies either.

Why the heck do we always go the "not invented here" route?

[Bevan666]

Actually its the reverse this time Sunfish. Here we have gone down the path of 1090-ES, which is the euro standard, and the standard in the US for high level ops as well. For GA, the US have UAT (978 Mhz) and relies on the 1090-ES responses be rebroadcast via ground stations.

Why did they go down this road? Wikipedia for the win!

The FAA would like to see aircraft that operate below 18,000’ use the 978 MHz link since this will help alleviate further congestion of the 1090 MHz frequency

Bevan..

[Jabawocky]

Dynon transponder is TSO'd and you do need a GPS source of course like a GTN that is TSO146 compliant.

For VFR installations there are some blind TSO units coming available at almost reasonable prices so watch this space.

The reason the Dynon will not show you targets here is because we do not have TIS here, and are not likely to. However you can connect a TCAS or a lesser spec PCAS to it if you wish.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/07/adsb-spoofing/

Hmmmmm sounds like our hero doesn't understand how the system actually works. He can spoof a plane spotter rig.

The paper in question

AIN article

[Jack Ranga]

GTN

Sunfish, I told you put a GTN750 in didn't I?

[T28D]

I would have thought the price should be moderating by now, the AIS gear for boats is now $750 from GME for a class B Transponder and splitter.

Sure it is abit different and is VHF but it works and the amount of data you can get on other marine traffic is quite stunning.

[Jack Ranga]

I think the price is moderating, a little from what I'm looking at but it needs to be a bit more yet

Wocky, sent you and e-mail to your work address

[baswell]

Hmmmmm sounds like our hero doesn't understand how the system actually works.

Take it from this internet-age computer guy. If you can't disclose WHY something is secure, it is not secure. Simple as that, no ifs, buts or maybes.

ADS-B is vulnerably to spoofing and denial-of-service attacks just like any other system that does not use cryptography.

With that out of the way: does that worry me and do I see terror plots and planes crashing? No. And it would take too big a setup to effectively disrupt traffic, so unlikely to see pranksters too.

But the underlying technology IS fatally flawed.

[Flying Binghi]

.

via baswell ...And it would take too big a setup to effectively disrupt traffic...

Hmmm... whats it going to take to get GPS turned off ? One GPS guided terror attack... two GPS guided terror attacks.... three GPS guided terror attacks ?......


For those that hav'nt been following the subject. No GPS = No ADSB.



Link to previous thread - http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ave-found.html
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Via the OZBUSDRIVER link, post #1

"...researchers still believe that an ultimate solution will require on-board cameras and, possibly, radar systems. In a recently released report, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) cited sense and avoid technology, among others, reaching the conclusion that the FAA is behind schedule on its integration of drones into the National Airspace System..."

How goes the Oz research on electronic see and aviod for drones/aircraft ? The research setup i seen on a 172 seemed fairly lightweight and structualy easy to instal on anything.





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[OZBUSDRIVER]

Not sure if I have linked this before-

Garrecht Avionik TRX-1090

Bludy smartphones! Cannot link image. Device combines FLARM returns with 1090es returns. Handy around glider fraternity.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Garmin Leads the Way to ADS-B Future

Interesting the difference a couple of years make.

Edit- How good is this Garmin Pilot App going to be?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Sagetech introduces ADS-B with synthetic vision AHRS

Sagetechs vision of new directions and the explosion of pilot friendly apps.

Edit- Osh must have been mind boggling this year!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

How NavCanada are looking at ADS-B coverage!

Interesting use of Iridium satellites to carry a receiver package. Available anywhere under the coverage of this constellation.

[LeadSled]

Actually its the reverse this time Sunfish. Here we have gone down the path of 1090-ES, which is the euro standard, and the standard in the US for high level ops as well. For GA, the US have UAT (978 Mhz) and relies on the 1090-ES responses be rebroadcast via ground stations.

Folks,

I do wish you would all stick to the facts.
1090ES and UAT are both ICAO standards, and, of course, there is the third standard, the first to go into real service, VDL4.

1090ES is not/was not a "Euro" system, it was dollied up by US manufacturers who didn't have "free" access to the patents for the "new" systems. The"'Euro" system is VDL-4.

All this has been covered many times, but the only reason 1090ES was ever adopted was because it was promoted to cash strapped US airlines as a "cheap" solution, using "existing" equipment ---- which in practice has proved to be anything but cheap ---- and would save the cost of new broadband equipment

The original ICAO competition was to produce a broadband datalink transceiver that could have multiple uses, with the trans-Atlantic politics , ICAO voted for two systems, VDL-4 and UAT. 1090ES came into the picture much later.

1090ES is an extremely limited narrow band datalink, it will not work in the US without UAT to carry most of the traffic.

What a dog's breakfast.

Not only has 1090ES proved to be very expensive to retrofit, both FAA and Eurocontrol have mandated broadband data links for routine ATC communications, to take over from VHF voice, so the airlines are stuck with a very inferior and expensive ADS-B system, with no development room, already suffering channel saturation in US, plus a datalink that could have saved all the costs of retrofit of 1090ES.

Sadly, with the collapse of GA flying in Australia, channel saturation will never be a problem here.

As has also been detailed on previous threads, the ground stations being used by Airservices are the same as the FAA, just missing the UAT card in its card slot.

Despite the vastly greater traffic in the US, FAA do not believe the need for a common system for collision avoidance is warranted ----- as born out by cost benefit analysis.

UAT ADS-B is getting cheaper, because of the size of the North American market, that will never happen with TSO'd 1090ES. The market for GA "mandatory" 1090ES ADS-B is so small, that manufacturer will never be more than a cottage industry, no economies of scale.

So, in Australia, we wind up with the worst of all worlds --- sounds familiar, doesn't it.

Tootle pip!!

PS: There is no doubt that the superior system is UAT, the signal is CDMA, whereas VDL-4 is TDMA ( like an old GSM phone)

[OZBUSDRIVER]

UAT was invented before ADS-B.

If I remember correctly the US was the last to come to the party. All the US studies used UAT. FedEx and Capstone were UAT. The yanks wanted UAT as the standard but ICAO went with 1090es.

Fruit is a problem with the 1090mHz frequency, there is no doubt. Mode ACS, DME, SSR and TCAS II all use the same frequency. Rationalization?

Cost to cash strapped airlines is a very old argument considering the turnover of equipment and the value of the hull as opposed to the cost of the investment in the upgrade.

For the kiddies at home...Leadsled is an avowed opponent of ADS-B because he believes it will lead to nm based useage charges. Big brother is watching!

[T28D]

For the kiddies at home as Ozbusdriver so blunlty puts it, both myself and Leadsled are reactive to user pays as our motivator, in fact we are committed to real understanding of Broadband transmission technology.

No matter how it is dressed up 1090ES is not broadband and is VERY limited.

Whereas CDMA is truly broad band and as the current mobile networks now at the 4th generation with 3 billion world wide users show, is broadband unfettered by capacity.

There is no fear of ADSB enroute charges for VFR. To build a billing system that can charge on random movements in class G airspace for a customer base of less than 10,000 aircraft simply would not make economic sense to any carrier even Air Services.

So stick to the rational technical arguments and retain your credibility.

[baswell]

Edit- How good is this Garmin Pilot App going to be?

Of course I am biased, but I did download it. (just create a US app store account, easy of you use an Amex card and fake US address)

It looks pretty, but the functionality is pretty darn poor if you ask me. Not very intuitive, not a great planner. Look at the star ratings / reviews in the App Store. There's much better apps there in the US and much better apps here.

Of course if someone comes up with a good 1090ES receiver for iPad we'll most likely support it, keeping in mind that in the US, they put mode-C targets picked up by radar into TIS broadcasts; Australia only has air-to-air, so its usefulness is very limited and may give a very false sense of security!

Like Leadie, I want my UAT.

[LeadSled]

The yanks wanted UAT as the standard but ICAO went with 1090es.

OZ,
With all due respect, that is simply not true. US promoted UAT ( CDMA, Qualcomm hold the patents) and Europe wanted VDL-4 (TDMA and Ericsson hold the patents).

ICAO finally accepted all three, such was the politics.

There is no doubt UAT is the superior technology, but VDL-4 would have worked for aviation, and was, in fact, the first system to go into day to day use, in Scandinavia. The large scale Mediterranean trial used VDL-4.

1090ES was/is the lashup that several very large aerospace industry manufacturers promoted to the airline industry, world wide, as a cheap and easy way of avoiding fitting new equipment ----- the rest is history. Never underestimate the lobbying power of very short sighted airlines and the ATA/IATA, even as we speak, ADS-B is anything but a done deal in the US.

VDL-2 is becoming very widely used for datalinks, world wide, replacing the original ACARS. VDL-4 has been widely adopted for ground collision avoidance, including in US. The US Marines have adopted VDL-4 ( which seems odd to me) for practice range management.

Wordlwide adoption of CDMA based would have been the smartest answer, adoption of 1090ES is certainly the dumbest answer, as the US ATA has finally realised, but for the time being, they are stuck with their previous shortsightedness.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Yes, I am opposed to mandatory ADS-B in Australia, it has never been cost/benefit justified, and the Australian preoccupation with ADS-B for collision avoidance just reveals a totally unreal estimate of the risk of collision, and the ability of ADS-B to mitigate that risk.

You realise, of course, that ADS-B IN information is NOT processed by TCAS 11.

The actual collision risk in any Australia airspace is so small that it is the statistically the equivalent of zero, except in circuit areas, where the risk is already ALARP. In VFR/vmc circuit areas, your eyeballs do not have the shortcomings of ADS-B at very short ranges.

I have no idea where you get the idea of avionics equipment turnover in airlines ( as opposed to private owners with more money than sense) where equipment generally remains as it came out of the factory, unless an AD dictates otherwise, such as the various software upgrades to TCAS 11, or regulatory change dictates.

The costs of the upgrades to Qantaslink -8s is a good example of real costs, versus the nonsense promulgated by Airservices in the early days. In fact, the Qantaslink costs were very close to the costs estimates in the FAA NPRM, and several orders of magnitude greater than CASA NPRMs.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Leadsled, read what I wrote!

This argument has been done to death at least five years ago. I am interested in your view wrt 1090es and UAT in the US....got any links to back that up?

Datalink or transponder? That is the question!