CIR vs NVFR. Operators Perspective
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: YMEN
CIR vs NVFR. Operators Perspective
I currently hold a CIR and NVFR rating restricted to circuit operations. (TTMRA) I intend to head north for work shortly, but am keen to hear some pros and cons from a CP/Operators perspective for holding a NVFR vs a current CIR.
I understand the CAO requirements for a charter operation under NVFR requires a CIR anyway. I'm guessing its rare this actually happens, but for aircraft repositioning etc companies seem to want you to have the NVFR as I've heard of a few missing out on positions due to them not having one.
I intend to keep my CIR current, however I do not have 10 hours PIC x-country under NVFR. Would most employers allow me to complete this if they wanted me to operate under NVFR?
Quite simply, I don't really have enough cash for my NVFR, the test alone is gonna cost me around $1200. At the same time, I don't really wanna pack up my gear for Darwin without covering all my bases for possible employment.
I understand the CAO requirements for a charter operation under NVFR requires a CIR anyway. I'm guessing its rare this actually happens, but for aircraft repositioning etc companies seem to want you to have the NVFR as I've heard of a few missing out on positions due to them not having one.
I intend to keep my CIR current, however I do not have 10 hours PIC x-country under NVFR. Would most employers allow me to complete this if they wanted me to operate under NVFR?
Quite simply, I don't really have enough cash for my NVFR, the test alone is gonna cost me around $1200. At the same time, I don't really wanna pack up my gear for Darwin without covering all my bases for possible employment.
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
If you're flying a single then night pax charter ops won't happen so the CIR won't be much use unless it's freight only, however...
...there can be a need to reposition before 1st light or after dark, in which case a CIR or NVFR will be needed. No CIR or no NVFR means no flying at night. The advantage of a NVFR is that it doesn't lapse, unlike a CIR. You lose any night privileges your CIR gives you when the CIR lapses. It's not always easy to renew a CIR when you're in the bush somewhere.
Sometimes NVFR can mean being able to fly into a strip where IFR won't allow so a NVFR rating (or CIR with NVFR privileges) can be beneficial in that type of case. Other times a CIR can be more useful due to not having the 60 min flight time limit for an alternate required due navaid.
...there can be a need to reposition before 1st light or after dark, in which case a CIR or NVFR will be needed. No CIR or no NVFR means no flying at night. The advantage of a NVFR is that it doesn't lapse, unlike a CIR. You lose any night privileges your CIR gives you when the CIR lapses. It's not always easy to renew a CIR when you're in the bush somewhere.
Sometimes NVFR can mean being able to fly into a strip where IFR won't allow so a NVFR rating (or CIR with NVFR privileges) can be beneficial in that type of case. Other times a CIR can be more useful due to not having the 60 min flight time limit for an alternate required due navaid.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 11th July 2012 at 06:54.
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 161
Likes: 6
From: Straya
I haven't flown NVFR for about 7 years, but I didn't realize it could be restricted to circuit operations only. You can be sent night solo in the circuit, but that doesn't mean you have a rating. Thought the rating required a navaid endorsement as part of it.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: YMEN
Yeah, I obtained the NVFR from my NZCAA CPL conversion. Most Aussie's have never heard of the restriction, but I get its specifically created for NZ pilots. I've tried talking CASA into issuing me an unrestricted NVFR, but apparently holding a CIR isn't sufficient. Anyway, some good info to take onboard. Thanks guys.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,359
Likes: 46
From: Hollister, Hilo, Pago Pago, Norfolk Is., Brisbane, depending which day of the week it is...
Guys, heads up.
If you do not hold a current CIR, you cannot operate NVFR for charter operations.
Refer to CAO 40.2.1 Para 14 for the ADDITIONAL aeronautical and recency requirements above a bare NVFR to be able to operate charter NVFR.
If you do not hold a current CIR, you cannot operate NVFR for charter operations.
Refer to CAO 40.2.1 Para 14 for the ADDITIONAL aeronautical and recency requirements above a bare NVFR to be able to operate charter NVFR.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: YMEN
Guys, heads up.
If you do not hold a current CIR, you cannot operate NVFR for charter operations.
Refer to CAO 40.2.1 Para 14 for the ADDITIONAL aeronautical and recency requirements above a bare NVFR to be able to operate charter NVFR.
If you do not hold a current CIR, you cannot operate NVFR for charter operations.
Refer to CAO 40.2.1 Para 14 for the ADDITIONAL aeronautical and recency requirements above a bare NVFR to be able to operate charter NVFR.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 767
Likes: 0
From: Australia
The operators up north prefer an unrestricted NVFR with the pre-requisite experience stated in the CAO for charter work, but ideally both.
The reason being is that if you only have a CIR it needs to be kept both current and recent to exercise the privileges which costs the operator money to do that. A night VFR is valid permanently, the only requirement to maintain decency is to do 3 take offs and landings.
Hope that helps
More to Follow
The Kelpie
The reason being is that if you only have a CIR it needs to be kept both current and recent to exercise the privileges which costs the operator money to do that. A night VFR is valid permanently, the only requirement to maintain decency is to do 3 take offs and landings.
Hope that helps
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: YMEN
Kelpie,
Thanks for that info. I was under the impression that the CIR only needed to be current (within 12 months) and did not have to meet the recency requirements (3hrs, 90 days etc). I could be wrong however, any thoughts?
Thanks for that info. I was under the impression that the CIR only needed to be current (within 12 months) and did not have to meet the recency requirements (3hrs, 90 days etc). I could be wrong however, any thoughts?
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
From: sydney, australia
Even if you had the aeronautical experience to fly nvfr under just a CIR, to fly under the nvfr, you would still need to meet the nvfr recency requirements.
Thats what i learnt recently outta my recent irex theory study anyways.
I myself am in a position where am deciding to get the nvfr due to the above reasons, or to just get CIR and gain the required night hours so to meet the aeronautical experience to fly nvfr with just the CIR. This thread has pretty much convinced me to get the nvfr anyway as its good for life and from what i hear employers usually require for new hires..
More money, so close yet so far away!
Cheers
Thats what i learnt recently outta my recent irex theory study anyways.
I myself am in a position where am deciding to get the nvfr due to the above reasons, or to just get CIR and gain the required night hours so to meet the aeronautical experience to fly nvfr with just the CIR. This thread has pretty much convinced me to get the nvfr anyway as its good for life and from what i hear employers usually require for new hires..
More money, so close yet so far away!
Cheers
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 4,282
Likes: 6
From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
It's not that much more money over the cost of a 'basic' CIR. Remember, you have to add the required NVFR experience to the CIR in order to use NVFR procedures. Compare those extra NVFR rating hours to what's required for a CIR NVFR privileges: From memory, a couple of hours of circuits & a NVFR flight test.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 11th July 2012 at 17:02.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 767
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Slam click
Thanks for that information, never really thought of it that way. Hmmm
From an award perspective if you only have a cir then you must be paid to fly using the privileges of a cir rather than under the privileges of an NVFR.
From an operators view that is about $2,000 per year more, or for the casual guys an extra $5.90 per hour!!
More to Follow
The kelpie
Thanks for that information, never really thought of it that way. Hmmm
From an award perspective if you only have a cir then you must be paid to fly using the privileges of a cir rather than under the privileges of an NVFR.
From an operators view that is about $2,000 per year more, or for the casual guys an extra $5.90 per hour!!
More to Follow
The kelpie
